By: MarkJ - 3 February, 2012 (7:26 AM) - Score: 5533 - Fixed Line Broadband, Statistics
bt retail ukNational UK telecoms giant BT has today released its latest results to 31st December 2011 (Q4), which saw their retail broadband ISP subscriber base add +146,000 (net) customers to hit a total of 6,144,000. BT also announced the launch of a new FTTP on Demand service, which could in theory allow them to deploy ultrafast 300Mbps+ (330Mbps in BT's PR) fibre optic ( FTTP ) broadband services to almost anywhere that its slower FTTC goes. A 1Gbps trial is also hinted.

The results represent a strong quarterly growth, albeit one that has slowed from the +166,000 net additions added during Q3. Elsewhere BT's primary 'up to' 40Mbps (rising to 80Mbps during Spring 2012) superfast broadband ( FTTC ) service has seen its coverage expand to 7 Million UK homes and businesses (up from 6 Million in Q3).

BT Retail's share of the superfast broadband ( BT-Infinity ) base increased by +95,000 in Q4 to reach more than 400,000 customers, which marks another steady rise in uptake from the +88,000 added during Q3. Separately the BTVision ( IPTV ) service (broadband TV) continued to grow by adding +39,000 new subscribers (total 679,000), which is slightly down from +44,000 in Q3.

BT's CEO, Ian Livingston, said:

"We have delivered another quarter of growth in profits and cash flow despite the economic headwinds.

In the UK, our fibre roll-out has accelerated bringing super-fast broadband within reach of over 7m homes and businesses and we remain the number one broadband retailer with over 6m customers. Our fixed-line base has now grown for the last five quarters and our active consumer line loss is at its lowest for five years.

We expect to achieve our 2013 EBITDA1 target of above £6bn a year early and to deliver free cash flow2 of around £2.4bn this year."

BT's performance in the last quarter has been strong but our readers will probably be more interested in the new FTTP on Demand solution, which has already had successful trials in St Agnes (Cornwall) and more are due to follow this summer.

BT is somewhat vague about how this new method of deploying fibre optic services will work, although it appears to overlay the existing fttc solution. Previously, FTTP speeds (100-300Mbps) weren't possible in FTTC (40-80Mbps) enabled areas but BT has "developed a solution that takes advantage of the fibre it has already deployed between the exchange and the street cabinet".

BT Openreach's CEO, Olivia Garfield, said:

"FTTP on demand is a significant development for Broadband Britain. Essentially, it could make our fastest speeds available wherever we deploy fibre. This will be welcome news for small businesses who may wish to benefit from the competitive advantage that such speeds provide.

We are also doubling the speed of our standard fibre broadband this Spring giving ISPs the chance to offer speeds of up to 80Mbps. This will ensure that residential customers have world class speeds for all their family’s needs."

According to BT, FTTP on Demand is anticipated to become commercially available to all ISPs by Spring 2013 next year. Sadly the service isn't likely to be cheap because BT's press release appears to focus on the business advantages, although it does confirm availability for home users too. We'll have more details later.. keep watching.

Tucked away deep in BT's press release is also a single line mention that the operator was "also testing a 1Gbps FTTP speed variant". BT has always said that its FTTP solution would one day reach speeds of 1000Mbps (1Gbps) and so this isn't really a surprise, although it's nice to hear that they won't stop at 330Mbps.

By comparison Virgin Media would find it hard to go beyond 300-400Mbps due to the limitations of their platform, although Virgin can cover significantly more than BT's limited FTTP footprint (currently targeting around 2.5 Million premises vs Virgin's 13 Million). It's not yet known how the new On-Demand FTTP solution will impact this as it appears to be an 'at request' service.

BT's main battle horse is thus still their slower 40-80Mbps FTTC service (possibly 100Mbps+ in the future), which aims to cover at least 66% of the UK by 2014.

UPDATE 11:01am

After putting a few questions about FTTP on Demand to BT's NGA spokesperson we now have a little extra detail to share.

In terms of cost, several price options are being explored and nothing has been set in stone. How much it costs is also likely to "depend on the exact location of the premise that wants the service" (i.e. the further you are away from the cabinet the higher the costs will be) and whether or not such work is subsidised by public money.

Galvin did suggest that the installation cost (to CPs) is likely to be in the "high hundreds of pounds". He also hinted that ISPs would have some control over whether or not it ends up costing "the same on a monthly basis as normal FTTP". ISPs might need to "absorb" some costs for that to happen; so don't believe any predictions about price yet, it's too early.

BT also confirmed that the service would indeed be available "wherever we have deployed fibre enabled cabinets", so it is a significant development; assuming ordinary folk can afford it.

When asked how this service would impact BT's current FTTP rollout, the operator told us that it "does change things somewhat although we haven’t formally issued a new c/p split" (FTTC / FTTP). So right now we don't know the answer. BT also shared with us a related diagram, which sadly lacks explanation of the points but some of you will know all the bits and bobs.

bt fttp on demand diagram

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Comments: 100

asa logoNick
Posted: 3 February, 2012 - 9:27 AM
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BT is somewhat vague about how this new method of deploying fibre optic services will work, although it appears to overlay the existing fttc solution


It won't be too earth shattering, I expect Huawei have caught up with the rest of the industry and BT can now plug an FTTP card into the same chassis it is deploying FTTC from.

BT then has to dig from that cab to your house with the fibre (charging you the full cost of doing so, and then making good profits from charging you a higher rental)
asa logoWhat?
Posted: 3 February, 2012 - 9:31 AM
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Anything in the press release about extending the 21CN coverage?
asa logoDeduction
Posted: 3 February, 2012 - 10:04 AM
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quote"( FTTC ) service has seen its coverage expand to 7 Million UK homes and businesses..."

LOL good luck with the 90% lark come 2015 is all i can say there are almost 26 millions homes in the UK Thats not including business premises by my maths thats only around 30% coverage AT BEST thus far and we all know thats probably massaged.

I also love the way they babble on about FTTP and all the shiny future that has, even though thats unlikely to have 2% coverage come 2015.

In short a bunch of self promoting dross.
asa logodragoneast
Posted: 3 February, 2012 - 10:25 AM
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No surprise that we are moving towards a "get what you pay for" model - it's more sustainable; but does this mean that general improvements such as the introduction of vectoring to existing FFTC services to make speeds more consistent, are now on the back burner and more unlikely?

In summary, the speed lottery for the basic service; or high-cost premium services. No change there.
asa logoTelecom Engineer
Posted: 3 February, 2012 - 11:10 AM
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True colours showing from some now but they still dont see it themselves. I suspect fttc will be dominant for 20years, but with fttp on demand for those who value it you would think some of the negativity would subside. Guess you cant keep a good troll down eh d?
asa logoTelecom Engineer
Posted: 3 February, 2012 - 11:17 AM
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dragoneast - good point re impact on acceration tech. Hopefully it will still be worthwhile as fttp differentiates as speeds climb. dont forget, its worth adding g.vector to improve coverage not just speeds.
asa logoSledgehammer
Posted: 3 February, 2012 - 12:28 PM
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This whole process is reliant on demand by the customer for fttc/ftth. 400,000 out of 7 million is not very good at the present time, even worse out of 26 million.

Bt are assuming customers are going to go for the speed option, what if the assumption is wrong, all the technical improvements for fttc are going to look like a waste of time.

Lets see where we are in regards to numbers in 12 months time.
asa logoTelecom Engineer
Posted: 3 February, 2012 - 3:04 PM
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Looking at the picture it seems they are simply taking a spare fibre from the joint prior to the fttc dslam. This being the case there is no reason why spines cables passing e/o areas could not be utilized to deliver fttp to these areas.
Sledgehammer - it is growing though and awareness isnt that great when cabs go live.
BT know a lot of customer do not even want fttc hence the low port to line ratio on most deployments. You would be surprised how many people are happy getting 2meg sky broadband for free with their package - they can youtube and facebook - for many 2meg adsl is good enough.
But we do need an upgrade path - when NGA was announced BT did a video to staff where they said if we didnt offer upgrades we could be a dead network within 15 years (competitors would come in and offer richer experiences with vdsl / fttp networks).
asa logoTelecom Engineer
Posted: 3 February, 2012 - 3:18 PM
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The real question now is how this is going to impact other network operators. I suspect that prices on the leased line business will fall like a rock and the likes of Fuji will have an even harder time trying to make a business case for a fttp network (especially if take up is low).
With this announcement the end user is now in control of their services. Personally I will stick with fttc (full speeds), and I know technical people who flat out refuse to upgrade as they are getting 6meg+ from dsl - but for those too far out to benefit from fttc / dsl a grand or two install is a small price to pay to leapfrog your house from undesirable not / slow spot to ultrafast hot spot.
asa logoTelecom Engineer
Posted: 3 February, 2012 - 3:29 PM
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[URL TOO LONG - Removed]

Document referring (many pages down) to blown fibre tubing - installing tubing to flat / properties - a tube with adequet length either end to be pulled into eu from dp / footway box along side the copper cables - for future fttp deployments. Interesting.

Also

http://www.openreach-communications.co.uk/our-network/service-options/how-do-I-know-what-products-are-right.aspx

Looks like this might have been a while in the making.
asa logoNick
Posted: 3 February, 2012 - 5:38 PM
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It's a bit worrying to see them splitting it twice as that will limit the available bandwidth per user. Although I shouldn't be surprised I suppose to see BT trying to wring the most out of it

Also looks as if they can't update the Huawei kit to be able to place an OLT card at the cabinet
asa logoNick
Posted: 3 February, 2012 - 5:40 PM
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And that does look like a huge ONT
asa logoNick
Posted: 3 February, 2012 - 5:48 PM
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and whether or not such work is subsidised by public money


Unfortunately that is going to be rare. The public money is largely going to go to supplement BT's FTTC rollout. Those directly connected to the exchange may get FTTP, but everyone else (except the 10% BT is going to ignore) will get FTTC unless they pay for it.
asa logoDeduction
Posted: 3 February, 2012 - 6:09 PM
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quote"This whole process is reliant on demand by the customer for fttc/ftth. 400,000 out of 7 million is not very good at the present time, even worse out of 26 million."

And BT supporters are always bashing on about how low the take up is for Virgins top end products. Quite funny really. cheese

Hundreds of pounds install charge for several joins in a cable and calling it a FTTP product.......... thanks ill pass.

Would this also assume there is ducting from pole to cabinet which in many cases there isnt (my road included) and cables are just buried in the pavement?
asa logoFibreFred
Posted: 3 February, 2012 - 6:26 PM
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Its not fibre as its spliced? Oh dear

This is great news, I knew you wouldn't like it though as it can bring FTTP to the masses
asa logoFibreFred
Posted: 3 February, 2012 - 8:37 PM
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I also love the way they babble on about FTTP and all the shiny future that has, even though thats unlikely to have 2% coverage come 2015.


Take off your hatred goggles and read the article. It will be available where FTTC is available.
asa logoDeduction
Posted: 4 February, 2012 - 2:15 AM
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Take of your rose tinted specs
1) I said that 2% remark before the news item was updated
2) Its likely to be best part of a grand install fee
3) Its isnt technically FTTP and if you knew anything you would know that already

Its self promoting dross, dig deeper and the financials for the quarter are entertaining. LOL
asa logoDeduction
Posted: 4 February, 2012 - 2:33 AM
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Its not a new idea either, there are organisations in Australia and probably other areas of the globe that have similar available services.

Ill give them credit where it is due, just to show your "personal abuse" toward me is not accruate........
1) Its a nice idea to give people options
2) Well done to BT if they do end up doing this out of their own pocket (even though theres a high install fee) and dont expect more BDUK or similar before they offer the product.

Its not a true FTTP or FTTB solution though, so lets not pretend it is.
asa logoDeduction
Posted: 4 February, 2012 - 2:38 AM
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A system like tis is also likely to suffer similar issues to what Virgin does (or people say it does) in some areas of the country.

The more people you chuck onto a shared node (im guessing from the pic that will be the primary or secondary node) the higher latency and congestion will get.

Its another new option so credit there to BT but its not the saviour BT and some are making out.
asa logoSomerset
Posted: 4 February, 2012 - 8:24 AM
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Why is it not 'true' FTTP? Any connection is shared somewhere.
asa logoGadget
Posted: 4 February, 2012 - 11:07 AM
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It appears to be according to this link

http://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia_term/0,2542,t=FTTP&i=43551,00.asp

Agreed though there could be several shades of FTTP from a end-to-end dedicated link (aka private circuit) to the PON based setup refered to in the link.

You pays your money and takes the choice - all end up with a fibre in your premises/home.
asa logoFibreFred
Posted: 4 February, 2012 - 1:02 PM
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Fair does on the 2%

It totally is FTTP but I wouldn't expect a hater to understand what everyone else does

Glad your peeved wink
asa logoNeil McRae
Posted: 4 February, 2012 - 1:57 PM
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Agree strongly with Fred.

FTTP uses fibre and is spliced to install it!!!

FTTP uses splitters to share the fibre loop between homes. Everyone deploying FTTP uses this technology which is known as G.PON. There are technology advances in PONs that will see them going to 10G and DWDM based 10G (which would be around 32X10G per loop).
asa logoFibreFred
Posted: 4 February, 2012 - 3:19 PM
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He knows full well its FTTP but as its BT he can't be seen to agree.

Just for reference Deduction if Virgin ran a fibre from their FTTN node to the home that also would be FTTP wink
asa logoDeduction
Posted: 4 February, 2012 - 3:29 PM
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LOL no cabinet for FTTP and there are no nodes or ONUs in FTTP/H let alone 2 of them, (FTTP does not have to do electrical to optical conversion and back again which is probably what the 2 notes in BTs diagram are doing).

If anything the system is a weird FTTC/N/P hybrid "ring" type system.

Posting with you multi aliases wont make it untrue.

Its a good improvement from BT and gives a customer more options but to promote its true FTTP/H is utter nonsense.

Thumbs up to BT for more options but thumbs down for the misleading name (they will probably rename it when released) to avoid confusion with their true FTTP products.

Thumbs down to you for using multi IDs to argue what is obviously wrong again.
asa logoFibreFred
Posted: 4 February, 2012 - 5:00 PM
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I think you'll find everyone bar you refers to it and knows it is FTTP... keep living your dream tho

And no multi id's sigh
asa logoGadget
Posted: 4 February, 2012 - 5:41 PM
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@Deduction

Guess you'd better re-write the wiki entry then as well
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_optical_network

"A PON consists of a central office node, called an optical line terminal (OLT), one or more user nodes, called optical network units (ONUs) or optical network terminals (ONTs), and the fibers and splitters between them, "
asa logoFibreFred
Posted: 4 February, 2012 - 6:31 PM
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Don't expect him to back down Gadget, this guy has never been wrong in his life... ever!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FTTP
asa logoDeduction
Posted: 4 February, 2012 - 6:58 PM
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Talking to yourself just makes you look stupid......

quote"The architecture can be employed using a string (point-to-point) topology or, in some cases, a ring topology. It allows service providers to network multiple nodes at the curb, enabling them to share the transport costs across the same neighborhood or across multiple neighborhoods. Sharing transport costs provides significant CapEx savings for the provider. Some providers choose an alternative point-to-point FTTC topology in which they deploy nodes throughout the neighborhood and connect fiber to these individual nodes."

The bold bit being what BT have done. Its not my fault you are a BT worker that doesnt understand FTTH doesnt have nodes.
asa logoDeduction
Posted: 4 February, 2012 - 7:04 PM
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The fibre goes from a CABINET (hence its FTTC) and will now go to a NODE.

http://www.btplc.com/News/Articles/Showarticle.cfm?ArticleID=14863CF1-DD70-4D79-83F8-2CDA88B3E51B

and the diagram above clearly tells and shows it.

The service is still technically FTTC although i freely admit it should in theory (remains to be seen) give very similar speeds to what a REAL FTTH/P service would.
asa logoFibreFred
Posted: 4 February, 2012 - 7:11 PM
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And... no

That is a quote describing FTTC, we all know what that is, nice try but fail as usual.

See the wiki links.. oh no.. stop it proves your wrong, don't look! sadder
asa logoDeduction
Posted: 4 February, 2012 - 7:11 PM
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Further more a FTTH/P network has no copper in the network chain to the premises at all........ This does, but ill see if you have the brains to spot where in the diagram first.
asa logoSomerset
Posted: 4 February, 2012 - 7:15 PM
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So the cabinet is a node and the exchange is a node and a data centre is a node and...

The service is FTTP because FTTP stands for...
asa logoDeduction
Posted: 4 February, 2012 - 7:16 PM
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Your wiki links even explain FTTC and FTTN use multi nodes, FTTP does not.

and as for......

"I think you'll find everyone bar you refers to it and knows it is FTTP."

Errr really best look at BTs very own diagram above again then (try to get past the shiny big bold title and look below it). Ohhhh whats those 4 letters in black???????

LMFAO
asa logoFibreFred
Posted: 4 February, 2012 - 7:21 PM
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There's no copper in this deployment is fibre ... and.. fibre

How come everyone here knows its FTTP but you? Does that tell you anything, in fact doesn't the fact that you disagree with everyone on every article also tell you something?

Probably not

Carry on talking in riddles, its still FTTP whatever your thoughts
asa logoDeduction
Posted: 4 February, 2012 - 7:28 PM
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If you really want to give it a clear name (which you cant really cos its a hybrid system) and you love wiki links so much. Then this is probably the nearest you can get to tagging it with a precise name......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiber_in_the_loop

As i said earlier here.......
http://www.ispreview.co.uk/story/2012/02/03/uk-isp-bt-tops-6-14million-broadband-customers-and-expands-ultrafast-f
ibre-cover.html?cpage=15#comment19

As i also said its not a new system.

Carry on mis naming it though, after all it doesnt stop you on any other item spewing absolute dribble and disinformation on how anything works or what the technical facts are.

Its a shame MarkJ still allows you to be here, its clear you are the same individual as New_Londoner, cos he would have most definitely had his 2 cents by now.

Which you obviously have with BRAND NEW IDs TODAY.
asa logoDeduction
Posted: 4 February, 2012 - 7:31 PM
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What do you think the orange bit from second node to poll has in it???
Guess why theres still a phone poll involved.... LMFAO
Guess why a second node is needed to split things??

Ouch my sides!
asa logoTelecom Engineer
Posted: 4 February, 2012 - 7:40 PM
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DEAR GOD!
The orange bit is fibre - just the "secondary" segment. The copper would remain for voice only until voice over fibre is rolled out. The telegraph pole remains to distribute the fibre tubing to each house rather than dig new ducting to every house at thousands a pop.
BT FTTP is a gpon network. BT leased lines point to point. The reason FTTP is possible to residential at reasonable cost will be the shared nature of the fibre. A full point to point fibre would still be available but you would have to order and pay the costs of leased line.
You are really so stupid as not to see? I think you are getting a kick out of winding people up here. One day you will get a girlfriend / boyfriend / dog or something to occupy your time. I look forward to that day when I can read this site without your bile spewing from every thread.
asa logoFibreFred
Posted: 4 February, 2012 - 7:42 PM
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Have you heard of an aerial fibre deployment? I guess not, you think the orange cable is copper terminating on an ONT in the home? tongue

MarkJ knows I'm not New_Londoner a quick ip check will confirm it

Anyway there's no point trying to talk sense into the senseless it doesn't matter what you want to call it yourself, rebrand it, its still FTTP
asa logoDeduction
Posted: 4 February, 2012 - 7:42 PM
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That took you 20 mins to change proxy, bit slow
asa logoDeduction
Posted: 4 February, 2012 - 7:48 PM
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I wish he would check IPs with something like this
http://network-tools.com/
then he would know what you are doing, which is the same as you have done on TBB for years
asa logoGadget
Posted: 4 February, 2012 - 7:50 PM
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@ Deduction
if you are refering to the "Proactive P&B with FTTC" title
then:

1)that is how the PCP/DSLAM and exchange equipment gets there.

and

2) Guess what, after you have all your fibre equipment in the exchange you can add a PON based solution to take a fibre all the way from the OLT via the aggregation node and the PON splitters to the customer where a fibre appears in the customer's Premises.

And its very clear that this product is only available where FTTC has been proactively deployed which is why there has to be a cabinet in the slide.
asa logoDeduction
Posted: 4 February, 2012 - 7:51 PM
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I cant wait for a further update on this item and the diagram explained.
asa logoGadget
Posted: 4 February, 2012 - 7:54 PM
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ummmmmm no-one else so far seems to have trouble with the diagram and require explanation
asa logoDeduction
Posted: 4 February, 2012 - 7:56 PM
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We shall see
asa logoNew_Londoner
Posted: 4 February, 2012 - 10:37 PM
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@Deduction
Definitely me commenting now, sorry for not being on earlier. You seem concerned about the diagram title? Guess what, the "p" and "b" in "Proactive P&B with FTTC" refer to FTTP and FTTB, which are being delivered alongside FTTC. Simple really, and much more cost effective than an FTTP only deployment.
asa logoDeduction
Posted: 5 February, 2012 - 5:11 PM
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^^^ Reading a few openreach documents it appears it stands for "Products and Briefings".
Which is probably where the diagram came from, some meeting they had. Once the full details are published your disinformation will be removed.
asa logoSomerset
Posted: 5 February, 2012 - 5:49 PM
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Google finds 'Plan & Build'.

D - what latency and congestion does a node add? How many nodes are there from home to www.google.com?
asa logoFibreFred
Posted: 5 February, 2012 - 6:52 PM
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Somerset in Deductionworld its not fibre to the premises unless its one long continuous length of fibre with no splices or nodes. Thankfully everyone on Planet Earth knows different
asa logoBriecheese Totalpong
Posted: 5 February, 2012 - 7:05 PM
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Looks like an expensive extension to FTTC

Yep google finds it as "Proactive Plan and build with FTTC". So i guess according to BTs diagram it is still technically FTTC just building on the current system.
asa logoFibreFred
Posted: 5 February, 2012 - 7:19 PM
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Not its not technically FTTC as its not copper to the home. It just so happens that the cabinet where the fibre to the home gets aggregated is the same place as where the FTTC product sits

Its just a green box with kit inside, just because one is FTTC and another is FTTP it makes no difference.

It starts as fibre in the exchange its fibre inside the cabinet and fibre into the home.
asa logoMike
Posted: 5 February, 2012 - 7:25 PM
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"Yep google finds it as "Proactive Plan and build with FTTC". So i guess according to BTs diagram it is still technically FTTC just building on the current system."

It would indeed seem to be the case. Is there not a proper name for expansion to a current fibre system?
asa logoGadget
Posted: 5 February, 2012 - 7:29 PM
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FTTC uses a copper feed to the customer from a cabinet, the Fibre on Demand product takes a fibre all the way to the customer using the fibres that are available at the cabinet.

The BBC article does a good explanation
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-16870464
asa logoMike
Posted: 5 February, 2012 - 7:32 PM
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Ah found it its called fibre in the loop
asa logoSomerset
Posted: 5 February, 2012 - 8:31 PM
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Look at the picture. The FTTP fibre comes from the aggregation node, not the cabinet. It's not FTTC.
asa logoDeduction
Posted: 6 February, 2012 - 12:59 AM
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The story states....
"BT has "developed a solution that takes advantage of the fibre it has already deployed between the exchange and the street cabinet".

and
"BT also confirmed that the service would indeed be available "wherever we have deployed fibre enabled cabinets", so it is a significant development; assuming ordinary folk can afford it.

If its not dependant on a cabinet explain that?

That diagram is also seriously lacking detail, such as what else will be fed from the primary splitter. It doesnt even show other feeds to the CCR.
@Mike@Briecheese
Yes technically the closest it is a FITL system as i tried to explain much earlier and got burried in the trolls waffle. The cabinet is involved (for somersets clarification) in the chain and needed as that is acting as the DSLAM in the network.
asa logoFibreFred
Posted: 6 February, 2012 - 7:43 AM
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The fact that you are referring to a DSLAM being used in a fibre delivery will make people chuckle cheese
asa logoFibreFred
Posted: 6 February, 2012 - 9:32 AM
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And Fibre in the loop is just a coined phrase for the action its not a product. The product is FTTP as the title says as... well everything/everyone says

Thankfully for you by the time more details emerge this article will have been buried to spare your blushes
asa logoNew_Londoner
Posted: 6 February, 2012 - 12:02 PM
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Looking at the diagram in the story, it seems to me that it is showing a pretty standard GPON topology which has one of the fibre spurs connecting to an FTTC cabinet for onward distribution via copper, however the rest uses passive opitcal components to reach the premises.

Why would anyone not treat this as FTTP? The DSLAM is also served by fibre, however its there for its own downstream copper connections, not for the benefit iof the GPON network.
asa logoTelecom Engineer
Posted: 6 February, 2012 - 3:48 PM
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I think its time we put our hands up and accept that if it has BT printed on it then it could never possibly be full fibre. Its obviously yet another lie from a sinister company out to mislead the nation. Thank God then that we have Deduction, who single handedly can spot these lies which industry competitors and full time technology correspondents fail to notice.
The fact it has a cabinet in the picture is not because it is showing that availability is dictated by the current nga footprint, its because of the magic fibre dslam BT has invented for its' not really fttp.
asa logoNick
Posted: 6 February, 2012 - 4:28 PM
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This has got to be a huge one. So let me try and explain. When deploying FTTC you usually have an underground connection box (footway box) which allows you to splice in the fibre to an individual Cabinet from the bundle of fibres that is passing on the way to the next one. This BT has labelled the Aggregation Node. To provide the FTTH/P solution BT is adding extra splices in that box to take fibres onwards to houses via a number of passive splitters (the splitter nodes). It is then deploying the final drop alongside the existing copper as aerial fibre from the Telegraph Pole (has to be fibre into the home as you wouldn't need an ONT). It then installs the OLT in the exchange and connects the fibres there.

So this is definitely a fibre to the premises/home solution

There are problems with the way they are deploying it - see next post
asa logoNick
Posted: 6 February, 2012 - 4:34 PM
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I don't like the fact they are splitting it twice. Most normal deployments of FTTH will use one splitter stage (32:1).

If BT is doing two stages of 32 (to wring the living daylights out of the capacity), even with 10G PON you are looking at an aggregate of 10M per user.

If we are generous and say they are doing a 16 and 16 split, then that gives an aggregate of 40M. Still not good.

Also the pricing is typical BT, they charge you the full cost of deploying the fibre, and don't give you a discount against the rental charges you will be paying them.

So yes FTTH/P but not deployed in a consumer friendly way, but in a maximise BT's profits way.
asa logoMike
Posted: 6 February, 2012 - 5:04 PM
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"The fact that you are referring to a DSLAM being used in a fibre delivery will make people chuckle"

The stupid such as yourself may chuckle. The intelligent will wonder why you are laughing.

A DSLAM is what is in any FTTC cabinet.

http://community.plus.net/blog/2009/06/12/plusnet-to-trial-fibre-to-the-cabinet-fttc/
"With these technologies the ADSL kit (DSLAM) is housed at the exchange. FTTC does something a little different, the DSLAM is located in the green street cabinet."

With that you have confirmed what i thought from the start and what others have realised.
You have no clue!
asa logoMike
Posted: 6 February, 2012 - 5:07 PM
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Also amazing the 3 regulars that alway all agree with each other were all online within a hour of each other, again. Not suspicious at all.
I guess this place not only allows the stupid to participate but stupid trolls.
Now thats something i imagine many are chuckling at.
asa logoFibreFred
Posted: 6 February, 2012 - 6:20 PM
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Mike, egg + face

I know what a DSLAM is, its used for xDSL NOT FTTP/H

Which is what I was pointing out to you, sorry Deduction.
asa logoTelecom Engineer
Posted: 6 February, 2012 - 9:04 PM
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LMFAO, We are all well aware what a dslam is and how it has NO relevance to a fttp connection. This is being rolled out where fibre has been laid already (i.e. fttc areas), the fibre is taken from the joint before the cabinet. You could completely remove the cabinet and you would not impact service to those on fttp. Re the number of splices - BT have said it will be the same tech as other fttp products with speeds of 300meg (potentially rising to 1Gb) so however many splitters etc they use I am sure they will ensure capacity to meet these commitments (or plan for upgrade to meet). Whatever flaws you may see in such a system it is the same as in use on their fttp only roll-out and no doubt a common feature on gpon networks. Not forgetting this is a SME / Residential product and not point to point leased line fibre which attracts a premium due in part to its differing network architecture.
asa logoTelecom Engineer
Posted: 6 February, 2012 - 9:07 PM
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Nick, we dont know the pricing yet so not fair to bash BT just yet - however RE profit hungry company - welcome to capitalism baby. The days of providing a customer service as a reason for operating is long gone. Its all about the money sadly.
asa logoTom (drsox)
Posted: 6 February, 2012 - 9:20 PM
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" Thank God then that we have Deduction, who single handedly can spot these lies which industry competitors and full time technology correspondents fail to notice. "

That made me chuckle.
asa logoSomerset
Posted: 6 February, 2012 - 9:53 PM
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So Deduction, please understand that the FTTP we are discussing uses a fibre connection through fibres and tubes for blown fibre provided as part of the FTTC rollout. The actual DSLAM in the cabinet plays no part in providing the FTTP as shown in the diagram.

Asked about '7' elsewhere.
asa logoDeduction
Posted: 7 February, 2012 - 1:20 AM
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Oh dear...
GPON (Gigabit Passive Optical Network) is explained here.
http://alpha.tmit.bme.hu/meresek/ttmer9/index_eng.html
Try searching for the term DSLAM in that document.

Perhaps you could make some money talking poop with your multi IDs and buy BT one of these...
http://www.zhone.com/products/Raptor/
quote"The Raptor enables service providers to deploy a wide variety of business and residential services in a single platform. These services are deployed over the MALC large list of access technologies which include fiber (both PON and Active Ethernet), ADSL2+, ReachDSL, SHDSL, and T1/E1."

OPPS!
asa logoNew_Londoner
Posted: 7 February, 2012 - 5:30 AM
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So looks like we're all agreed that this is in fact FTTP and that the DSLAM plays no part in the fibre delivery, accepting Nick's point above about clarification needed on the number of splits. Clearly what hangs off the end of the fibre (eg the DSLAM) has no bearing on the network topology upstream of it.

So this is about reducing the cost of provision of FTTP by using the fibre infrastructure being deployed for FTTC to provide FTTP ("on demand") as well. In other words, pretty much what it says in the original story, quote "...a solution that takes advantage of the fibre it has already deployed between the exchange and the street cabinet".
asa logoFibreFred
Posted: 7 February, 2012 - 7:16 AM
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New_Londoner everyone knew that from the start, its taken 5 pages to explain to Deduction, does he get/accept it?

Doubt it, look at his posts he hates anything BT and can't listen or accept reason if it conflicts with his anti BT views
asa logoFibreFred
Posted: 7 February, 2012 - 7:25 AM
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Oh dear...
GPON (Gigabit Passive Optical Network) is explained here.
blah blah blah


Hardly the best document or official but yes its mentioned of course it is as it mentions ADSL/VDSL which a DSLAM serves (as I said) and which isn't part of FTTP as I also said. glee
asa logoMike
Posted: 7 February, 2012 - 12:26 PM
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Haha that was priceless Deduction.

It was up early talking to itself today wink
asa logoBriecheese Totalpong
Posted: 7 February, 2012 - 1:40 PM
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Not a DSLAM for FTTH/P either

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/432946732/Hardware_ready_for_FTTP_FTTH_EPON/showimage.html

Doesn't exist at all. <{Sarcasm off}>
asa logoFibreFred
Posted: 7 February, 2012 - 4:09 PM
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And what has that link got to do with the picture above Brie/Mike/Deduction/All the same person?
asa logoNick
Posted: 7 February, 2012 - 4:16 PM
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My point regarding the splits is it is another point of aggregation and therefore another watering down of the available bandwidth.

I am out in rural land with a sub 2M ADSL (not ADSL2+) connection, on a BT Business Broadband line, connected to a small rural exchange.

During non-peak periods I get a much worse service than friends in a nearby (small - also ADSL only) town, but during the peak hours I actually get a better service than they do.

That is because a) there are only a handful of Broadband connections on my exchange, b) we are then on a dedicated connection back to the nearest backbone node (which is where my traffic starts to compete with others) and c) the BT Business line has a better priority through the network.

For my friends they are competing firstly with hundreds of others before they even hit that backbone node.

More aggregation = less bandwidth = worse service :
asa logoDeduction
Posted: 7 February, 2012 - 4:49 PM
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LOL @ Mike and Brie oh dear you two have annoyed the resident troll also now LOL

@Nick You probably don't even have ducting from your pole to the cabinet, many rural areas don't. I live in a NON-rural area (quite a big town actually) and my road from pole to cabinet the current cabling is just buried under the pavement. Can see this costing just a few hundred for an individual where BT have to lay all new duct and the fibre also.
Of course the resident troll who thinks DSLAMs dont exist will tell you otherwise LOL
asa logoFibreFred
Posted: 7 February, 2012 - 5:42 PM
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Its a fair point Nick but its standard practice to do this, its just capacity planning if you want a dedicated 100Mbps or 1Gps link it costs thousands to install and monthly rental.

Plus the fact that it will be starting at 110Mbps and then 300 and 1Gbps beyond says to me more fibres can be added as needed.
asa logoTelecom Engineer
Posted: 7 February, 2012 - 8:12 PM
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Nobody says dslams dont exist - they are an xdsl technology - links to fttc documents or hardware which incorporates xdsl technology does nothing to change the fact that this is a fttp product with no copper involvement with regard to the access network. If you want to perform perhaps the most technical challenge you may ever face Deduction I suggest you wash your hands, and then follow the line back from the home to to clearly labelled gpon rack at the exchange in the diagram. You will note there is no dslam in the access network involved in this users link, it just passes the one serving people of fttc - an xdsl technology hence why it uses a dslam.
You are trying to go off at tangents to mask the fact that you are unable to accept that this is not a copper product and you consistently show your inability to grasp the concept of what everyone is telling you. Are you cyberdoyle?
asa logoFibreFred
Posted: 8 February, 2012 - 7:31 AM
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@Telecom Engineer

It is standard Deduction practice, when his argument fail as they often do he changes them mid track.

Thankfully others like yourself can see what is in the setup and what isn't.

Cyberdoyle? No

Carpetburn? 100%
asa logoDeduction
Posted: 8 February, 2012 - 4:45 PM
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I assume you are accusing me of being someone else. As you would say the site can always check my IP.

As for the DSLAM argument, there is none 2 others have made you look wrong enough with links. It doesn't need me to rub more salt into your wound. Clearly they do exist in Fibre PON solutions.

Its always entertaining to watch the same people miraculously post within 2 hours of each other though, curious how so many people are online so early in the morning and so late at night. Your aim is clearly to annoy, though in this case you have been made to look like the fool you are.
asa logoRedshark
Posted: 8 February, 2012 - 5:08 PM
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So. A cost prohibitive FTTP install would mean a single fibre from an aggregation point to the house. Lots of fibre needed, lots of cost.
But with GPON you can run fewer fibres to a point in the street, split these passively and then serve each home with a fraction of the bandwidth they would have had with a direct fibre link.
Is that the case? If so, it seems that then BT will have a similar set up here - fibre run to some passive splitting, at which point some fibres will head straight to a home while others go to a DSLAM to connect to provide a VDSL2 service?
Meaning, in order of cost ascending you have:
- FTTC (DSLAM in green box)
- FTTP (from GPON splitter either near green box or just buried in street), with less bandwidth than your entire fibre can muster
- Dedidated leased line.

Correct?
asa logoFibreFred
Posted: 8 February, 2012 - 8:03 PM
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That's the one Redshark

No-one dedicates bandwidth for residential set-ups like this.

ISP's don't buy backhaul to cover all of their 24Mbps , 30Mbps, 100Mbps customers all running flat out at once, its too costly and makes no sense as all customer's don't run flat out like that its peaks and troughs
asa logoNew_Londoner
Posted: 8 February, 2012 - 9:23 PM
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i suggest anyone believing multiple ids are being used should complain following the information given in the tab at the top of the page. Surely best that any genuine complaints are flagged accordingly.
asa logoFibreFred
Posted: 9 February, 2012 - 9:53 AM
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New_Londoner, he has already complained on the forum and was told by Mark that he posts more under multiple id's than anyone else, its an interesting read and worth a look, talk about history repeating itself.

I'm hoping to get FTTC myself later this year if my cab is also enabled and I'll certainly consider FTTP in the future depending on price of course, this can only be good news.
asa logoDeduction
Posted: 9 February, 2012 - 3:36 PM
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Mark has said no such thing and im sure he will be interested to hear your accusations.
asa logoTom (drsox)
Posted: 9 February, 2012 - 6:50 PM
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The specific accusation isn't mentioned by name but is open to being assumed:

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/talk/showthread.php/31087-News-Item-posting.?p=223847#post223847
almost all of what you're complaining about above have been committed by yourself more than almost any other single comment poster.


I am not commenting on the accusations and if you are guilty but pointing out what might make "FibreFred" think that you are a multiple id poster.

Hope this helps :D

Tom - www.mouselike.org
asa logoSomerset
Posted: 9 February, 2012 - 10:46 PM
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D - what is the role of the cabinet DSLAM in this FTTP solution?

ps asked for text paste elsewhere.
asa logoDeduction
Posted: 11 February, 2012 - 1:28 AM
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Ask BT because the cabinet obviously does play a role......

http://www.btplc.com/News/Articles/Showarticle.cfm?ArticleID=14863CF1-DD70-4D79-83F8-2CDA88B3E51B

quote"Previously, FTTP speeds weren’t possible in FTTC enabled areas but BT has developed a solution that takes advantage of the fibre it has already deployed between the exchange and the street cabinet."

And the reason it can do that as ive already explained is because it uses the cabinets DSLAM, the FTTP "ondemand" service is GPON based which uses a DSLAM as opposed to their other FTTP product which is available to limited numbers which is a GEA (Generic Ethernet Access) product as detailed http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/super-fastfibreaccess/geafttpbrownfield/geafttpbrownfield.do and as the name would thus doesnt require a DSLAM.

2 different products.
asa logoDeduction
Posted: 11 February, 2012 - 1:29 AM
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Oh and on the news comments i dont post under any other ID, i dont feel the need to talk to myself as well as others.
asa logoNew_Londoner
Posted: 15 February, 2012 - 6:33 PM
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Good to know that none use multiple IDs then, so nobody needs to complain about this!

Meanwhile back on topic....
asa logoDeduction
Posted: 18 February, 2012 - 7:21 PM
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No i dont you on the other hand love to talk to yourself. Understand the differences in the 2 products yet? Nah of course you dont.
asa logoGadget
Posted: 18 February, 2012 - 7:39 PM
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I assume the two products you are referring to are the current FTTP GEA product and the Fibre on Demand product in this thread.

The difference as I see it is that the GEA Product infrastructure will be proactively built as part of the rollout, and the Fibre on Demand Product infrastructure will only be built, shall we say, on demand.

Do you have another interpretation?
asa logoDeduction
Posted: 22 February, 2012 - 1:38 AM
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GEA is just that Generic Ethernet Access (GEA) it doesnt require a DSLAM

GPON is just that gigabit passive optical networks.

The ondemand product is GPON based and uses the cabinets DSLAM. It uses a fibre which is then fed to splitters that fibre is then split to serve multiple premises (thats why it needs the DSLAM and why its passive). Almost the complete opposite to what their GEA product does. As i said from the start 2 entirely different products which function in entirely different ways.
asa logoAnton
Posted: 22 February, 2012 - 2:26 AM
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Hazel Posted on I knew you were diteensd for GREATNESS when you stepped into the world! Keep your hand in God's hand and all things are possible. Love you, Mom
asa logoGadget
Posted: 2 March, 2012 - 8:26 PM
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@Deduction - suggest you check the Openreach website - it offers two types of GEA, GEA-FTTC and also GEA-FTTP, it even has pictures.
GEA-FTTP does not have any DSLAM shown in the path at all, and is GPON technology.
In the interest of clarity here's the url : http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/super-fastfibreaccess/fibretothepremises/fttp/downloads/GEA_FTTP_2%2063551%2020111108.pdf
So assuming your quote "As i said from the start 2 entirely different products which function in entirely different ways." refers to the GEA product set and the GPON technology then you might want to reconsider....
asa logoDeduction
Posted: 3 March, 2012 - 12:35 AM
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NO GEA-FTTP only involves GPON to any external networks. The diagram is very clear. And thats for other providers that purchase a link to the end user.
GEA-FTTP has no DSLAM i already said that. The new on-demand product does. GEA-FTTC uses a DSLAM.
Its very clear. No idea why you have trouble comprehending diagrams or have taken again to trolling near 2 weeks on.
Ive obviously upset you again in some news item and made you look silly again.
asa logoFibreFred
Posted: 3 March, 2012 - 12:38 PM
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The new on-demand product does. GEA-FTTC uses a DSLAM.


Talking in riddles as usual

On demand GEA-FTTC? Doesn't even exist
asa logoDeduction
Posted: 12 March, 2012 - 1:36 AM
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I never said there was a ondemand FTTC product.
ALL FTTC uses a DSLAM... The FTTP ONDEMAND product will also.
Most GPON based FTTH/P uses a DSLAM

Ethernet access FTTH/P doesnt.

Not hard to follow.



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