{"id":16324,"date":"2018-06-18T00:01:47","date_gmt":"2018-06-17T23:01:47","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.ispreview.co.uk\/?p=16324"},"modified":"2024-02-23T15:20:24","modified_gmt":"2024-02-23T15:20:24","slug":"dr-john-cioffi-on-the-viability-of-1-terabit-dsl-copper-line-broadband","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.ispreview.co.uk\/index.php\/2018\/06\/dr-john-cioffi-on-the-viability-of-1-terabit-dsl-copper-line-broadband.html","title":{"rendered":"Dr John Cioffi on the Viability of 1 Terabit DSL Copper Line Broadband"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Broadband ISP speeds of 1 Terabit per second (1000000Mbps) down a traditional copper line? It may sound impossible but that&#8217;s what Dr John Cioffi, best known as the &#8220;<em>father<\/em>&#8221; of DSL, proposed last year (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.ispreview.co.uk\/index.php\/2017\/05\/forget-300mbps-g-fast-assia-unveil-1-terabit-dsl-copper-line-broadband.html\">here<\/a>) with Terabit DSL technology. In our latest interview we ask John about TDSL&#8217;s viability.<!--more--><\/p>\n<p>At present the vast majority of consumers in the UK connect their broadband ISP services via a form of <strong>Digital Subscriber Line<\/strong> technology (e.g. <a class=\"shortlink shortlink-121 shortlink-chref\" href=\"https:\/\/www.ispreview.co.uk\/index.php\/link\/adsl\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"\" title=\"digital subscriber line\" data-chref=\"https:\/\/www.ispreview.co.uk\/broadband_DSL.php\">ADSL<\/a>, VDSL [FTTC] etc.), which sends electrical signals down a tiny bit of twisted pair copper wire in order to deliver an internet connection into your home.<\/p>\n<p>Two of the key people involved with the development of DSL were <strong>Joseph Lechleider<\/strong> and Stanford Professor <strong>Dr John Cioffi<\/strong>. The latter is a seasoned electrical engineer that has published over 600 papers and holds over 100 patents (many related to <a class=\"shortlink shortlink-121 shortlink-chref\" href=\"https:\/\/www.ispreview.co.uk\/index.php\/link\/adsl\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"\" title=\"digital subscriber line\" data-chref=\"https:\/\/www.ispreview.co.uk\/broadband_DSL.php\">ADSL<\/a>, VDSL, Vectored VDSL, <a class=\"shortlink shortlink-112 shortlink-chref\" href=\"https:\/\/www.ispreview.co.uk\/index.php\/link\/gfast\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"\" title=\"g.fast\" data-chref=\"https:\/\/www.ispreview.co.uk\/broadband_cable.php\">G.fast<\/a>, DSM, LTE, Massive-MIMO and Wi-Fi). On top of that he&#8217;s also the CEO and Chairman of California-based ASSIA.<\/p>\n<p>Suffice to say that if it were anybody else proposing <strong>Terabit DSL<\/strong> then we might struggle to take it seriously but that&#8217;s definitely not the case with John.<\/p>\n<h3><span style=\"color: #339966;\"><strong>What is TDSL?<\/strong><\/span><\/h3>\n<p>At present modern <strong>Fibre-to-the-Cabinet<\/strong> (FTTC) style broadband technologies like <strong><a class=\"shortlink shortlink-112 shortlink-chref\" href=\"https:\/\/www.ispreview.co.uk\/index.php\/link\/gfast\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"\" title=\"g.fast\" data-chref=\"https:\/\/www.ispreview.co.uk\/broadband_cable.php\">G.fast<\/a><\/strong> can harness 106MHz of spectrum (rising up to 212MHz in the future) and tend to deliver their best speeds at under a few hundred metres from your local street cabinet, with electrical signals travelling inside the copper wire.<\/p>\n<p>Future enhancements like <strong>XG.Fast<\/strong> \/ <strong>G.mgfast<\/strong> may even be able to use up to around 848MHz of spectrum but these will suffer even more from signal degradation over distance, meaning you&#8217;ll need a very short line in order to get the best performance and some doubt that today&#8217;s increasingly &#8220;<em>full fibre<\/em>&#8221; (<a class=\"shortlink shortlink-110 shortlink-chref\" href=\"https:\/\/www.ispreview.co.uk\/index.php\/link\/fttp\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"\" title=\"fttp\" data-chref=\"https:\/\/www.ispreview.co.uk\/broadband_fibre_optic.php\">FTTP<\/a>\/H) focused operators will ever adopt it.<\/p>\n<p>By comparison <strong>TDSL<\/strong> proposes the radically different approach of using the existing copper wire as a &#8220;<em>guide<\/em>&#8221; (<strong>waveguide<\/strong>) to help direct a wireless broadband signal in the 100GHz+ millimeter Wave (mmW) band, which could carry huge amounts of data.<\/p>\n<p>One early model predicts that speeds of 100Gbps (Gigabits per second) could be achieved at distances over 300 metres (future G.fast upgrades might deliver c.500Mbps at this distance), while 10Gbps might work at distances over 500 metres and even those on longer lines of 700 metres could potentially achieve symmetric speeds of around 1Gbps.<\/p>\n<p><img decoding=\"async\" class=\"ngg-singlepic ngg-none\" src=\"https:\/\/www.ispreview.co.uk\/wp-content\/gallery\/2018-uk-internet-statistics\/terabit_dsl_performance.jpg\" alt=\"terabit dsl performance\" width=\"100%\"><\/p>\n<p>The fact that such speeds could be achieved, without needing to replace existing copper cables with expensive &#8220;<em>full fibre<\/em>&#8221; infrastructure, is a significant incentive for operators to explore the approach. Unfortunately at present TDSL is just a model and ASSIA are keen to drum up support for further research and funding.<\/p>\n<p>On top of that there&#8217;s a question mark over the real-world viability of using mmW spectrum in such a way, which is a band that can be easily disrupted (such signals usually don&#8217;t travel very far without a dense or powerful network to keep them stable). On the other hand, back in the days of 14Kbps dial-up modems, few could have envisaged that a 1Gbps capable copper technology like G.fast might ever exist.<\/p>\n<p>Dr. John Cioffi is due to talk more about all this on 20th June (15:40) at the TNO Ultra-fast Broadband Seminar in The Netherlands, but before then he&#8217;s kindly granted us an interview to discuss TDSL and the challenges involved with its potential adoption.<\/p>\n<h3><span style=\"color: #339966;\"><strong>The Interview<\/strong><\/span><\/h3>\n<p><strong>1. Generally when somebody mentions DSL (Digital Subscriber Line) I tend to think of electrical signals travelling inside a metallic copper or aluminium cable. In keeping with that the title of your new \u2018Terabit DSL\u2019 (TDSL) solution has perhaps caused some confusion because it actually works in quite a fundamentally different way. Would you mind explaining the core differences to our readers?<\/strong><\/p>\n<blockquote><p><u>ANSWER:<\/u><\/p>\n<p>You are correct about DSL to date having used the transmission-line mode of operation of a metallic cable. This is only one of the modes of transmission (there are others that arise in solving the famed Maxwell Equations that largely govern the electromagnetic wave propagation that is fundamental to all wireless and wireline communication). The other \u201chigher-order\u201d modes are often called the \u201cwaveguide modes.\u201d Your readers can think of the waveguide modes as \u201cwireless transmission\u201d around the wires, guided by those wires rather than flowing in the wires. The wires\u2019 presence helps the wireless work better in most cases &#8211; that is the waveguide.<\/p>\n<p>Exploiting the waveguide modes of a binder of twisted pair connections involves a coordinated set of transmitters and receiver, not just one of each. This set of transmitters and receivers is the equivalent of the multiple antennas used in MIMO [Multiple-Input and Multiple-Output]. The coordinated processing allows clean up of the messy spatial interference (called crosstalk) between all the waves propagated around and between the wires. Normal waveguides (like fiber) usually don\u2019t need MIMO and have a single transmitter and receiver (usually &#8211; MIMO is starting to be used in fiber also). The twisted pairs need it badly to have a chance at working. If it all can be coordinated well, there is a chance for Terabits\/Hz of information to be transmitted over 100 meters. Lower speeds can go further (it looks like 10 Gbps at 500m).<\/p>\n<p>The antennas are very tiny and closely packed in this case because the frequencies used are very highly (100 GHz to 1 Teraherz) where a wavelength is 3 mm down to .3 mm so an entire set of them can be packed closely (and even manufactured as a single module using 3D printing\/manufacturing technology).<\/p>\n<p>I hope this helps and was not too technical for your readers.<\/p>\n<p><img decoding=\"async\" class=\"ngg-singlepic ngg-none\" src=\"\/\/www.ispreview.co.uk\/wp-content\/gallery\/2017-uk-internet-statistics\/terabitdsl_diagram_tdsl.png\" alt=\"Terabit DSL Diagram (tdsl)\" width=\"100%\"><\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><strong>2. When we first heard about TDSL it sounded like little more than a mathematical model. How far along is this technology in its development and when do you think we might see the first real trials taking place?<\/strong><\/p>\n<blockquote><p><u>ANSWER:<\/u><\/p>\n<p>There are some initiatives and many ideas on how to test the waveguide propagation in various situations. There is some US Government interest in funding it at the right labs &#8211; I am trying to encourage that funding to the right places to characterize and investigate further.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><strong>3. With so many operators now investing in <a class=\"shortlink shortlink-110 shortlink-chref\" href=\"https:\/\/www.ispreview.co.uk\/index.php\/link\/fttp\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"\" title=\"fttp\" data-chref=\"https:\/\/www.ispreview.co.uk\/broadband_fibre_optic.php\">FTTP<\/a>\/H, isn&#8217;t TDSL at risk of arriving too late to the party and where do you envisage it being used?<\/strong><\/p>\n<blockquote><p><u>ANSWER:<\/u><\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s been said for decades now with twisted pair (too late to the party). Indeed in the mid 1990\u2019s before any even slower DSLs were deployed, venture capital groups would not fund those efforts for the same reason (had to be fiber). The reality is that the replacement of the 1.3B global telephone lines by fiber is a very expensive and time-consuming process. Realistic estimates of cost, based well on the costs today, are that it is AT LEAST an average of $3000\/line, so that is $4 Trillion to do it. Its also a very long time as well.<\/p>\n<p>Thus, I\u2019ve tried not to let that \u201cfiber will be everywhere in 3 years\u201d that I have heard regularly since 1989 get too much in the way of the advance of methods that can help. The copper is there and will be for a long time, so we might as well do our best to use it and not get too concerned in its replacement.<\/p>\n<p>Today, many \u201cfiber\u201d connections still have a DSL at the end of them &#8211; its just called fiber. If you count these, the global number is roughly 500M DSL connections. Replacing the last drop segment to the consumer residence is the most expensive part of fiber replacement, so it is often not done even when the fiber gets closer, shortens the copper, and thus higher speeds are possible.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>Continued on page 2..<\/p>\n<p><!--nextpage--><\/p>\n<p><strong>4. In a real-world environment the traditional twisted pair copper lines, such as those that run between <a class=\"shortlink shortlink-46 shortlink-chref\" href=\"https:\/\/www.ispreview.co.uk\/index.php\/link\/openreach\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"\" title=\"openreach\" data-chref=\"https:\/\/www.openreach.co.uk\">Openreach<\/a>\u2019s (<a class=\"shortlink shortlink-145\" href=\"https:\/\/www.ispreview.co.uk\/index.php\/go\/britishtelecom\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\" title=\"BT\">BT<\/a>) street cabinets and homes or offices in the UK, don&#8217;t always appear to be setup in a way that would necessarily favour a Terabit DSL style waveguide transmission. <\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>In your view, how realistic is this likely to be as a solution for potentially connecting individual homes in such an environment?<\/strong><\/p>\n<blockquote><p><u>ANSWER:<\/u><\/p>\n<p>Yes, that is true and was true for all DSLs. Generally, solutions to these types of problems arise. ASSIA is often considered to be the world expert in diagnosing and fixing (often automatically with optimization software that tunes everything) these types of problems for all types of copper (and wireless) connections. These problems will get solved for any method.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><strong>5. By the sounds of it TDSL would need to employ some complex Vectoring in order to tackle crosstalk style interference at the stated speeds. The current generation of considerably slower G.fast connections are already struggling with this challenge over larger port counts (heat, power, cpu, space etc.) and it seems to follow that Terabit DSL might be an order of magnitude more difficult to resolve, is that the case?<\/strong><\/p>\n<blockquote><p><u>ANSWER:<\/u><\/p>\n<p>Those problems will magnify with TDSL, so you are correct. However, early forms of DSL were also deemed too expensive and today are dime-store cheap with ADSL chips using well below a watt in total power consumption and having sub $1 costs\/port. They were once even more expensive and used more power than today\u2019s G.fast chips. When there is volume purchase, then these costs will reduce.<\/p>\n<p>The issue in the UK has been repeated calls for fiber all the way to the home. This is too expensive, and not affordable. Other copper (and wireless) solutions are really the only answer, but that gets twisted to mean that <a class=\"shortlink shortlink-145\" href=\"https:\/\/www.ispreview.co.uk\/index.php\/go\/britishtelecom\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"nofollow\" title=\"BT\">BT<\/a> and the operators are not investing. They have been embarrassed into staying away from very copper technologies that could help the UK progress much more rapidly to high-speed connectivity because it looks like they\u2019re not investing. Indeed, if they were allowed to invest in the copper technologies more, then it would be cheaper and faster to the higher speeds desired.<\/p>\n<p>Firing executives at operators will not change the economics. When mass volumes are demanded for chips, power and cost will reduce rapidly.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><strong>6. Speaking hypothetically, in terms of potential deployment costs, what would be the key pros and cons of TDSL versus a G.fast style solution that in its cheapest form can be deployed from existing street cabinets?<\/strong><\/p>\n<blockquote><p><u>ANSWER:<\/u><\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s too early to answer this question really because the precise characterization of the waveguide improvements needs more characterization first before a network-planning exercise can be undertaken.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><strong>7. We\u2019ve heard talk about TDSL being able to deliver speeds of up to 10Gbps over 500 metres of copper cable, but how would it fair when travelling over much longer lines of up to around 2000 metres and what sort of adjustments might be required to make that work (if any)?<\/strong><\/p>\n<blockquote><p><u>ANSWER:<\/u><\/p>\n<p>That is what everyone asks, including BT in the UK. It turns out the longer distances complicate the waveguide flow (even at lower speeds attempted). There is some hope for symmetric 1 Gbps at 700m. That is as long as anyone has attempted to speculate so far in terms of length. There are some &#8220;<em>lowest usable<\/em>&#8221; frequency effects that start to dominate as the length gets beyond 700m.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><strong>8. Last year\u2019s TDSL announcement sounded similar to the proposed AirGig solution from AT&amp;T Labs in 2016 (<a href=\"https:\/\/www.ispreview.co.uk\/index.php\/2016\/09\/att-labs-propose-airgig-wireless-powerline-broadband-technology.html\">here<\/a>), which finally entered the trial phase at the end of 2017. What are the key differences between TDSL and AirGig and do you see the potential for any clashes over related technology \/ patents?<\/strong><\/p>\n<blockquote><p><u>ANSWER:<\/u><\/p>\n<p>Airgig uses power lines and one of the waveguide modes known as the surface wave. It is an early form of waveguide use (that was postulated over a century ago by Sommerfeld, Marconi, and others) with a single wire. There is no MIMO, but rather a highly directional single antenna (which is kind of like MIMO) spaced every few 10\u2019s of meters or so to try to keep the energy from drifting too far from the power line.<\/p>\n<p>AT&amp;T\u2019s attempts to explore in this area should be commended. They\u2019ve had some interest in other waveguide methods suggested here, but probably need to put more effort into it as yet (after all they own the phone wires, but need to lease power lines from the electric company).<\/p>\n<p>Airgig reportedly has had problems with moisture on the power lines, similar to the moisture problems that plague most of mm wave transmission trials today. The binder of wires does not have this problem presumably, but has its own other set of secondary effects that will need to be addressed as well. All are good ideas, but need time, effort, and of course money to be developed into field-hardened systems.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><strong>9. Finally, how serious are ASSIA about turning TDSL into an actual product that operators can use?<\/strong><\/p>\n<blockquote><p><u>ANSWER:<\/u><\/p>\n<p>We are software company, so do not make hardware. We\u2019ve been willing to work with all to help it progress, and some have been interested in doing that. We cannot do it by ourselves.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>End.<\/p>\n<p>Thanks to Professor Cioffi for his detailed insights into TDSL and its potential future. We look forward to seeing how the proposed technology develops.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Broadband ISP speeds of 1 Terabit per second (1000000Mbps) down a traditional copper line? It may sound impossible but that&#8217;s what Dr John Cioffi, best known as the &#8220;father&#8221; of DSL, proposed last year (here) with Terabit DSL technology. In our latest interview we ask John about TDSL&#8217;s viability.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"ngg_post_thumbnail":0,"footnotes":""},"categories":[2716,1],"tags":[474,55,417,69,477,476],"class_list":["post-16324","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-interviews","category-uk_isp_news","tag-bt","tag-fttc","tag-g-fast","tag-bt-openreach","tag-science","tag-wifi"],"share_on_mastodon":{"url":"","error":""},"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v27.4 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/product\/yoast-seo-wordpress\/ -->\n<title>Dr John Cioffi on the Viability of 1 Terabit DSL Copper Line Broadband - ISPreview UK<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Broadband ISP speeds of 1 Terabit per second (1000000Mbps) down a traditional copper line? 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