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4g+ and 5G rollout in towns?

ok, I meant 4 channels via carrier aggregation.

whats the most common type of MIMO used for 4G masts? is it 4x4 MIMO, 2x2, or just SISO.

I read this on Reddit about MIMO and CA:

"2xCA, or two carrier aggregation, is where two bands are aggregated together and combined as if they're one, like Band 2 and Band 12.

2x2 MIMO is having two antennas on the tower sending to two antennas on the phone, over the exact same band."

Is that correct?

In the UK, do most 4G devices already recieve multiple signals from a mast via MIMO, regardless of whether carrier aggregation is enabled?
 
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That is correct.

2x2 is probably the most common and I expect 4x4 is being enabled as the antennas panels are being exchanged during upgrades, though I don't have and hard data to back this up, and may well vary between providers.

The ability to receive MIMO depends on the handset (usually) more expensive ones have the RnD spent to develop and tune the multiple antennas required for it. Lower end handsets are probably just 2x2. My original Moto G 4G from 2014 is a 2x2 device, so I'd expect it'd be hard to find a SISO device.

For context, the iPhone 11 is 2x2, whereas the 11 Pros are 4x4. Snapdragon 800series modems usually are 4x4 but the 700 and down are 2x2 (but that also depends on the handset manufacturers utilising the capability when building a phone around the chipset)

Be aware however, even if the device and antenna both support 4x4 MIMO you won't necessarily get that all the time. It is likely to drop to lower orders (2x2 or 1x1) depending on the signal level - SINR I think being the key one.
 
It does seem entirely possible to get huge 4G speed improvements, just by implementing LTE-A features at masts, like higher spec MIMO and QAM. For example, where I live, the Three mast has 64QAM and 2x2 MIMO, max speed 112.5mbps (only has band 3), which I suspect is a very common configuration for current masts.

If these features were upgraded to 256QAM and 4x4 MIMO, the max speed increases to 293.7 mbps with 15mhz bandwidth, or 391.6mbps if upgraded to 20mhz bandwidth.

Link for mast specs here:

I think just by doing that, customers could get a 3-4x improvement in speeds, assuming at least 60-70% signal to masts. But, like Gavin said, MIMO 4x4 might not be consistantly active without a strong signal.

And thats without bothering with carrier aggregation, which would require adding extra bands to a lot of masts. With those upgrades, LTE speeds could easily overtake FTTC speeds in many areas...

Still, I wonder if it might be more cost effective to instead build 5G masts in areas across the UK, without some of the advanced LTA-A features mentioned above, which as far as I know, are not requirements.
 
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Both of those things require a separate hardware replacement at a given site - the antennas to get 4x4 and the radio to get 256QAM (assuming the radios are still Samsung i.e. B3 only) - it's not just a case of ticking a box to turn on a feature if the installed hardware doesn't support it.

The rollout plans are to deploy 5G hardware, however as that hardware is newer it brings with it the ability to then enable LTE-A features that the older hardware doesn't necessarily support.
 
Yup, thats what I meant by it being more cost effective to just install 5G equipment, rather than upgrade 4G with LTE Advanced hardware.

Good point about needing to replace the radio to gain 256QAM, I wasnt sure if upgrading to 256QAM involves replacing the hardware or not.

Still, I dont suppose they will opt for high end 5G equipment if the bandwidth is already 5x that of 20mhz single carrier 4G in Three's case, unless its needed to improve capacity in population dense areas.

Im happy to be corrected on that though if you know any more about the type of 5G equipment being rolled out, e.g the type of MIMO used.

I think EE is doing it in phases, with phase 2 starting in 2022, which seems to be aimed at improving bandwidth and latency. Phase 3 seems to be to further improve latency (maybe 1-2ms?), and supposedly enable 'multi-gigabit per second speeds'. So, perhaps we wont see high end 5G equipment at sites until at least 2022/2023, with both these phases planned to run upto 2033!

Three does seem to be upgrading some of their 4G sites (adding new antenna and extra b32 band and refarming some of their 3G spectrum to 4G) at least until 2023. Come to think of it, both of the latter improvements probably wont result in speed improvements without carrier aggregation, which doesnt seem too promising to me :D

EE seems to be focused on rolling out 5G to cities and a few towns, not sure if they plan any other improvements to 4G.
 
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I don't think the quality or specifications of the mast tech are anywhere near as important as having the core back haul available to actually deliver the capable speeds the new technology is "supposed to deliver".
 
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Each site will be planned for a certain upgrade type (from the minimum 'radios only' through to 'max config' with 5G and all bands, or somewhere inbetween) - the requirements likely being driven heavily by current and extrapolated capacity demands.

Originally for Three everything was going to be replaced with Huawei, but obviously that can't happen now.

EE already have massive capacity deployed (in certain urban/high demand areas at least) through the use of upto 5xCA and 4x4MIMO, but you will still find some sites that aren't - my EE/Three shared mast only has B3 (2x2) for EE, whereas Three upgraded the radios and added B1.
In my opinion EE already have a solid 4G network baseline and while there may be pockets of places where things could be improved, they're reaching diminishing returns. Pivoting and focusing on 5G feels like the right thing for them. End users do pay for this though, they're often the most expensive network for a user.

Three however have a much lower baseline, they've made do with B3 4G for a lot of their network for a long time and by not deploying 4G upgrades in the meantime probably (hopefully?) means they can now focus on 5G more (and as a side effect that will bring along with it 4G enhancements).
Their tariff costs are consistently lower and have lower customer numbers, so they have less revenue to play with - when spending, they have to do it efficiently.
 
Would be nice if areas that aren't gonna have 5G equipment installed in the next 5-10 years would at least get 4x4 MIMO instead. That should, at least in theory double 4G speeds for most users (if they have a good 4G router a very high spec router). I wonder if this is what Three meant by antenna upgrades, or if they meant something else entirely.

I'd guess that upgrading to four transmit and four receive antennas at masts is super expensive though, probably running into the hundreds of millions of pounds if done at 90-100% of a network's 4G sites.

I'm thinking that Three's 4G upgrades are mostly aimed at improving capacity rather than increasing raw speed, as they mostly involve reusing 3G bands and adding the B32 L band.
 
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I'm sure there are plans to keep advancing, however no-one is privy to that information.

There is little point in deploying something like 4x4 if the bulk user-base connected to a given mast don't own a device which can make use of it - it certainly won't be 'most users' will see a doubling of speeds - 'most' handsets (mid-range and below) don't support it.

Antenna swaps, which are required to swap out the antennas for ones that are 4x4 capable, do cost more for the device itself, but there are also the labour, planning, access to the site and machinery (cherry picker/crane/whatever) costs to do the actual work - are additional costs that swapping out a radio in ground level cabinet doesn't have.
 
Well you are right, most user devices cant support 4x4 MIMO. So far, the only (currently available) routers ive found that do are the latest 5G Huawei routers. Basically, 3 and EE would need to offer this router to all new 4G home broadband customers (as they do in 5G areas), perhaps users would need to pay half upfront cost because these routers cost over £200 at the moment, unless they take out a long contract. Or, networks could try to develop a cheaper 4G 4x4 MIMO router themselves / in collaboration with companies such as Huawei.

I still think it would be a more worthwhile upgrade than 256 QAM by itself, despite the costs. This feature is also not supported by all user equipment
 
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Here's a bit of geeky info about probable 5G equipment being used by Three. This configuration seems to approximately correlate with the maximum 5G download speed results that have been recorded in the UK, which have so far been upto 599Mbps :

5G max speed mast config.jpg


EE's signal is lower bandwidth (40mhz) than Three's, so they are probably using either 4 'layers' instead of 2, or a higher grade of modulation to achieve similar speeds to Three.
 
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Here's a bit of geeky info about probable 5G equipment being used by Three. This configuration seems to approximately correlate with the maximum 5G download speed results that have been recorded in the UK, which have so far been upto 599Mbps :

View attachment 458

EE's signal is lower bandwidth (40mhz) than Three's, so they are probably using either 4 'layers' instead of 2, or a higher grade of modulation to achieve similar speeds to Three.
Three deploy 256QAM and 4 Layer, so theoretical speeds are much higher, though as ever in the physical world those are never seen.
 
Reading with interest, 4G+/4x4 mimo/QAM etc will all
be rolled out with Three as the fall back for 5G, you can’t drop from 300Mbps to band 20 800MHz 4G would be damaging. Assume 700/800 MHz will also roll out on 4 & 5G for national calls & data coverage.

Sure it’s being rolled out at the most needed areas so far, o2 shared base stations in London show the impact where the poster above linked to the 4G+ roll out map.

Threes new 4G hub is the upgraded Cat 6 300Mbps 2018 ZTE MF286 which has been upgraded to Cat 12 600Mbps, 4x4 & 256 QAM.

LTE bands 1/2100 3/1800. 7/2600, 8/900 20/800, 32/1500 (download only L band).

Safe to say carrier aggregation on 4G is being rolled out by postcode/capacity as when you order its postcode dependent if you can order just like 5G HUAWEI hub, but for Three to at last invest in such a device points to its national roll out over numerous financial years.

5G Hub (H112-370):

LTE Bands1, 3, 5, 7, 8, 20, 28, 32, 34, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43
LTE 4x4 Bands1, 3, 7, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43


Unfortunately for me CoVID delayed Three 5G roll out (base sharing EE went live months ago!?) so the only network not on 5G is the one I want (premium Three 5G spectrum).

Three is coming of age, last time Hutchison sold out - Orange after 6 years, the £2 billion investment roll
out in 4G & 5G will take time and thats before HUAWEI & CoVID delays but they are on it, being top dog after almost 2 decades of underdog.
 
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