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4g antenna positioning/choice

noodlerush

Regular Member
Hi All,

I was looking for a bit of advice on upgrading my current 4g setup, I know the basics but not a lot more than that!

I currently have a B525 router with a single Poynting 4G-XPOL-A002 Directional mounted within my loft space. I've ordered the Huawei 818 modified router for 4x4 mimo. Generally speedtest says we get about 20 to 30mbs download but seems to be primary band 20 aggregated and doesnt aggregate when band 3 is primary? ( three network)

Ive attached some screenshots but im basically 4.5km from our mast and it seems I have direct line of sight with the mast being 50m higher than our house. Im planning on mounting an extra 2x2 externally, I assume since our current antenna picks it up and we're supposedly direct line of sight that a directional antenna will be best. I am deciding between another XPOL-A0002 or have also been recommended the ISKRA P60 that i believe @Sdcampbell used?

- My question i suppose is should the ISKRA provide a much better result than the A002, and how much more of a faff is it to calibrate and install?

- How do people actually install these things when its halfway up a chimney!? Im looking at mounting it where the red dot is in my house pick, the existing antenna is in the loft around about where the green dot is.

- Are there any tricks of the trade to position the ISKRA temporarily or do I have to install the wall bracket and hope that its not a waste of time!? I assume rotating the ISKRA a few degrees can make a big difference so imagine it must need a sturdy fixed bracket even just for getting a rough idea rather than just poking it up there on a long stick...

-My "lazy" approach is to keep the existing 2x2 loft antenna and just add the 2x2 ISKRA or Poynting to start with externally, is this stupid and should i move the existing poynting to the same external mast or add a second pair or ISKRA...?

- Finally how much of a difference does coax length make, my life would be much easier using the 10m cable from that chimney rather than 5m or 7.5...

Any thoughts or advice greatly appreciated.





celltower 12.webp
roof 2.webp
 
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Perhaps it'll burst your bubble but there is a low chance that the mast will be 4*4 MIMO enabled, so the 818 and the additional antenna won't be adding anything from that perspective.

Where the 818 might help things is that it can aggregate B32 with bands other than B20 (for Three that would benefit B3 and/or B1), however there is no evidence on cellmapper that B32 exists in your area (no-one has mapped it).
The 525 can only aggregate B32 with B20.

There have been reports from others here of Three limiting B20 aggregation only if it is the primary band. It's not something I can test out personally, but it could be a configuration change they have made recently.
 
Re iskra vs poynting, find the gain graphs and see which has higher gain for the bands you are using. Also, iskra seems more directional, so might be more fiddly to position.
 
Coax should also be kept as short as possible, else any gains made by using an external antenna can be cancelled out through losses in the cable, perhaps even negatively effecting things
 
Perhaps it'll burst your bubble but there is a low chance that the mast will be 4*4 MIMO enabled, so the 818 and the additional antenna won't be adding anything from that perspective.

Where the 818 might help things is that it can aggregate B32 with bands other than B20 (for Three that would benefit B3 and/or B1), however there is no evidence on cellmapper that B32 exists in your area (no-one has mapped it).
The 525 can only aggregate B32 with B20.

There have been reports from others here of Three limiting B20 aggregation only if it is the primary band. It's not something I can test out personally, but it could be a configuration change they have made recently.
huh, I didn't realise that, so the mast I use has to allow/ provide 4 signals then for adding additional antenna to make any difference?? primarily those that are 5G masts? Not just that the router combines 2 antennas and twice the signal data into one?

I can definitely see the ISKA being a pain to orientate correctly vs the poynting....
 
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Yes, the mast needs to have the necessary hardware deployed at it to enable 4*4. As far as I know the 5G sites all get 4*4, but some pre-5G ones might too, but I'd expect those to be the urban sites where the capacity is needed.

Also, the number of streams you can actually use (called Rank) is dependent on your signal metrics - they have to be very good
 
Yes, the mast needs to have the necessary hardware deployed at it to enable 4*4. As far as I know the 5G sites all get 4*4, but some pre-5G ones might too, but I'd expect those to be the urban sites where the capacity is needed.

Also, the number of streams you can actually use (called Rank) is dependent on your signal metrics - they have to be very good
well consider my bubble burst....sad times.
 
Hi All,

I was looking for a bit of advice on upgrading my current 4g setup, I know the basics but not a lot more than that!

I currently have a B525 router with a single Poynting 4G-XPOL-A002 Directional mounted within my loft space. I've ordered the Huawei 818 modified router for 4x4 mimo. Generally speedtest says we get about 20 to 30mbs download but seems to be primary band 20 aggregated and doesnt aggregate when band 3 is primary? ( three network)

Ive attached some screenshots but im basically 4.5km from our mast and it seems I have direct line of sight with the mast being 50m higher than our house. Im planning on mounting an extra 2x2 externally, I assume since our current antenna picks it up and we're supposedly direct line of sight that a directional antenna will be best. I am deciding between another XPOL-A0002 or have also been recommended the ISKRA P60 that i believe @Sdcampbell used?

- My question i suppose is should the ISKRA provide a much better result than the A002, and how much more of a faff is it to calibrate and install?

- How do people actually install these things when its halfway up a chimney!? Im looking at mounting it where the red dot is in my house pick, the existing antenna is in the loft around about where the green dot is.

- Are there any tricks of the trade to position the ISKRA temporarily or do I have to install the wall bracket and hope that its not a waste of time!? I assume rotating the ISKRA a few degrees can make a big difference so imagine it must need a sturdy fixed bracket even just for getting a rough idea rather than just poking it up there on a long stick...

-My "lazy" approach is to keep the existing 2x2 loft antenna and just add the 2x2 ISKRA or Poynting to start with externally, is this stupid and should i move the existing poynting to the same external mast or add a second pair or ISKRA...?

- Finally how much of a difference does coax length make, my life would be much easier using the 10m cable from that chimney rather than 5m or 7.5...

Any thoughts or advice greatly
Hi All,

I was looking for a bit of advice on upgrading my current 4g setup, I know the basics but not a lot more than that!

I currently have a B525 router with a single Poynting 4G-XPOL-A002 Directional mounted within my loft space. I've ordered the Huawei 818 modified router for 4x4 mimo. Generally speedtest says we get about 20 to 30mbs download but seems to be primary band 20 aggregated and doesnt aggregate when band 3 is primary? ( three network)

Ive attached some screenshots but im basically 4.5km from our mast and it seems I have direct line of sight with the mast being 50m higher than our house. Im planning on mounting an extra 2x2 externally, I assume since our current antenna picks it up and we're supposedly direct line of sight that a directional antenna will be best. I am deciding between another XPOL-A0002 or have also been recommended the ISKRA P60 that i believe @Sdcampbell used?

- My question i suppose is should the ISKRA provide a much better result than the A002, and how much more of a faff is it to calibrate and install?

- How do people actually install these things when its halfway up a chimney!? Im looking at mounting it where the red dot is in my house pick, the existing antenna is in the loft around about where the green dot is.

- Are there any tricks of the trade to position the ISKRA temporarily or do I have to install the wall bracket and hope that its not a waste of time!? I assume rotating the ISKRA a few degrees can make a big difference so imagine it must need a sturdy fixed bracket even just for getting a rough idea rather than just poking it up there on a long stick...

-My "lazy" approach is to keep the existing 2x2 loft antenna and just add the 2x2 ISKRA or Poynting to start with externally, is this stupid and should i move the existing poynting to the same external mast or add a second pair or ISKRA...?

- Finally how much of a difference does coax length make, my life would be much easier using the 10m cable from that chimney rather than 5m or 7.5...

Any thoughts or advice greatly appreciated.





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View attachment 1660
Greetings fellow Devonian!

I have been using a setup almost the same as you have for 3 years.
The B525 is very limited in its carrier aggregation abilities. CA of B3 and B20 would only work if B20 is the primary. Also B20 /B32 together would only work for short periods before CA was lost.
I now have a B818 which I'm still playing around with. Currently using my existing antenna with B3/B32 CA which gives the best speeds (70 to 150Mbps)
Have you tried putting your B818 in the loft and just using its internal antenna? My signal metrics were very similar or even slightly better when in the loft than using the external antenna.
 
Don't know what happened to my previous post, it seems to have quoted you twice?!
I'll try again 🙄

Greetings fellow Devonian!

I have been using a setup almost the same as you have for 3 years.
The B525 is very limited in its carrier aggregation abilities. CA of B3 and B20 would only work if B20 is the primary. Also B20 /B32 together would only work for short periods before CA was lost.
I now have a B818 which I'm still playing around with. Currently using my existing antenna with B3/B32 CA which gives the best speeds (70 to 150Mbps)
Have you tried putting your B818 in the loft and just using its internal antenna? My signal metrics were very similar or even slightly better when in the loft than using the external antenna.
 
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we mainly use Poynting LPDA-92 antennas ( two of them on a bracket so they are at 45deg) see below on page 6 for the mimo bracket designs


they come with 8mt of coax terminated in SMA, the 11dBi gain on these LPDA Log Periodic antennas is good for 10km or more

cannot recommend them highly enough, not cheap, but they work really well, better than ISKRA P60 which we compared against the Poynting LPDA-0092 - and the Poynting pulled in over 20% better speeds
 
Don't know what happened to my previous post, it seems to have quoted you twice?!
I'll try again 🙄

Greetings fellow Devonian!

I have been using a setup almost the same as you have for 3 years.
The B525 is very limited in its carrier aggregation abilities. CA of B3 and B20 would only work if B20 is the primary. Also B20 /B32 together would only work for short periods before CA was lost.
I now have a B818 which I'm still playing around with. Currently using my existing antenna with B3/B32 CA which gives the best speeds (70 to 150Mbps)
Have you tried putting your B818 in the loft and just using its internal antenna? My signal metrics were very similar or even slightly better when in the loft than using the external antenna.
Thanks, ahh okay. Haven't got the 818 yet so will see what happens when it arrives!
 
we mainly use Poynting LPDA-92 antennas ( two of them on a bracket so they are at 45deg) see below on page 6 for the mimo bracket designs


they come with 8mt of coax terminated in SMA, the 11dBi gain on these LPDA Log Periodic antennas is good for 10km or more

cannot recommend them highly enough, not cheap, but they work really well, better than ISKRA P60 which we compared against the Poynting LPDA-0092 - and the Poynting pulled in over 20% better speeds
Thanks, interesting on difference between the iskra vs poynting. Iskra say to mount each aerial 90cm apart while the mount for the poynting shows them right next to each other.. they look basically the same so one much be more optimum than the other physics wise....? I would imagine as Iskra have stated those separation then they must have a good reason for it?
 
Thanks, interesting on difference between the iskra vs poynting. Iskra say to mount each aerial 90cm apart while the mount for the poynting shows them right next to each other.. they look basically the same so one much be more optimum than the other physics wise....? I would imagine as Iskra have stated those separation then they must have a good reason for it?
The poyntings are to be installed at - +45 degrees to match MIMO polarisation.
 
The poyntings are to be installed at - +45 degrees to match MIMO polarisation.
Hi, yeah I understand that. I mean that ISKRA say they should be 90cm apart vertically or horizontally ( another users installation photo attched) while at 45degrees where as poynting show their mounting bracket both aerials right next to each other.
 

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Sorry guys, another question!

On coax and signal loss. I believe both Poynting and IRSKRA both have 0.5ohms impedance. I know you can get slightly better coax at 0.35 I believe.

1- is it possible to replace the cable on these antenna and would it be worth it.

2- if i get a 10m cable is it possible/ easier enough to shorten if I only end up needing say 6m, and would that make any measurable difference?

cheers
 
Pinging @Pwablo for their radio knowledge - though not sure if they frequent this forum much these days (you might be better asking on a radio/electrical specific site/forum).

For #2 I would say yes, definitely shorten any cable to the shortest run you can, you're removing the material so reducing loss. It'd be even better to put the router as close as possible to the antenna and then run ethernet around the house to routers/WiFi access points etc.
 
the Poynting 92's come with 8m of coax, so can you organise where the Huawei B525 goes to be within 8m of the antennas

I don't think a couple of metres is going to make too much difference to be honest, the real answer is to get the antennas high up on the chimney and pointing directly to the mast, then speed test at 4am in the morning when nobody is using 4G data in your area
 
Sorry guys, another question!

On coax and signal loss. I believe both Poynting and IRSKRA both have 0.5ohms impedance. I know you can get slightly better coax at 0.35 I believe.

1- is it possible to replace the cable on these antenna and would it be worth it.

2- if i get a 10m cable is it possible/ easier enough to shorten if I only end up needing say 6m, and would that make any measurable difference?

cheers
Hi
You can change the cable on the antenna, as long as its 50 ohms, and also for the desired frequency range, however cutting the cable close to the back of the antenna and putting in connectors will introduce insertion loss and provide a weak point for water ingress etc. Best results would be obtained if you were to un-solder the existing cable and replace directly onto the antenna board inside, but this will mean opening the antenna enclosure up, which is not for everyone.
Have a look at some of the online cable loss calculators.
https://www.qsl.net/co8tw/Coax_Calculator.htm
Stick in the cable type and length you have (or the length you think you need, and see the difference on each of the bands)... you will be surprised at how much less loss better quality cables have in comparison to the cheaper cables that comes with these off the shelf 4G antennas. LMR-400 (RG-8) is a good compromise for an upgrade, for flexibility and performance.
As Gavin said, for best results, stick the Router up next to the Antenna in a IP67 Enclosure and power it via PoE over Cat5e/Cat 6 (if its capable) and keep the coax as short as possible. Or in the attic so the cable run is minimized.
Good Luck and Have fun.
 
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