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Announcement from NDO - comment from Cashpot!

cashpot

Casual Member
Here is a notice just posted on the NDO website (and not at the top either!). It seems to imply that those who want a faster service are only (or almost only) those who want to download films illegally. I resent that!
Second it says that we will have to wait until July 2005 for full details of their upgraded services.

Sorry, I think that NDO have misunderstood their customers on this. I personally want to view news and other video (100% legally) for a trial that I wish to take part in. There are also other uses for my faster connection which I feel is nothing to do with NDO (just as the content of my 'phone calls - provided they are legal - is nothing to do with BT!)

I am prepared to pay, and pay handsomely for a 2 meg (or faster) connection,
if the announcement isn't modified I shall certainly consider my future ISP Host.

I would GREATLY appreciate others comments on this matter.

Cashpot.

***************************************************
There are many changes occurring in the market place and as a result a great deal of confusion which is being led by BT Wholesale announcing the upgrade program that will enable most user lines to be upgraded to 2Mbps. The project within BT is being carried out on an exchange-by-exchange basis between March 2005 and August 2005 and Users will only be able to benefit from higher speeds when their exchange is upgraded.
The market situation is being further complicated with the some ISP’s announcing free upgrades to 2Mbps, but without making clear the timescales involved, which is leading Users to believe that the upgrades will happen sooner than they will in reality.

BT Wholesale has also announced early details of a trial for DSL Max (which is ADSL provided at speeds of up to 8Mbps, depending upon line quality) but has only released limited information. NDO like many ISP’s need to know more information, which BT has promised to make available in the next few months, as this will affect the products, prices and features of our future products.

NDO tries to maintain a competitive product range with high quality service and support which means that we shall not necessarily be the cheapest provider in the market place, but our products will be relevant to the needs of our customers, taking into account the applications that are available at any point in time.

NDO provides ADSL services that are uncapped and we rely on our customers to respect our Fair Usage Policy, but the changes in the market have led to low prices in the market based on both capped and speed restricted services which lead some of our customers to seek cheaper alternatives that do not necessarily offer the same features and quality of service as the NDO products. However we are reviewing both capped and speed restricted products at lower prices that may suit some of our customers.

Currently most applications work well on 512Kbps connections and only about 3% of our customers would see a noticeable benefit from higher speeds. It should be noted that some of the larger bandwidth users that currently require high-speed connections are using P2P including bittorrent applications to download music, films, software and data, some of these downloads maybe in breach of both the NDO AUP and Fair Usage Policy. We do not condone downloads that breach copyright laws and use an unfair proportion of both our bandwidth and central pipe capacity to the detriment of other customers.

We would expect in the coming months to see products that are burstable allowing a temporary increase in speed at any point to allow such actions as the download of a film, therefore taking advantage of higher speeds only when required.

At NDO we are committed to offering a quality, value for money service and we are working hard to launch our new products during July 2005, which will include capped products, a 2Mbps home product and an update concerning DSL Max.

We are also looking to offer a variety of new products and services to make the most of your ADSL broadband connections - including variable speed control, allowing you to change the speed of your connection as your needs vary, VoB (Voice over Broadband) making use of VoIP (Voice Over IP) and also Video-on-demand services – which should begin to become available from late Spring 2005.
 

GJH

Guest
Cashpot,

The post is probably "not at the top" because it is on their forum and the most recently posted on topic appears "higher". Please don't suggest it's not an important for this reason.

NDO have stated that due to the present confusion in the market place, they are not yet ready to announce their future plans for:

1) Higher speeds and/or
2) Capped services

They have a number of ideas for the future and intend to announce these when they feel the time is right.

I don't think NDO have misunderstood their customers particularly as I am one of them, and have been since 1995, and would much rather they get it right than make an arse of it like certain other companies seem to have.

The part of the post you quote above does NOT include 'part 1' which was (to copy and paste as you have done)
You have may have seen in the IT press recently a number of ISPs announcing free speed upgrades for all their users, taking users from 512k to both 1mb and 2mb ADSL connections, all of these upgrades are actually being announced as a result of an upgrade initiative path from BT Wholesale.
The true story is a little bit different from what the press releases may lead you to believe –

Essentially BT Wholesale (who operates the ADSL network at the local exchange level) are planning an exchange by exchange upgrade program to increase the speed on every users ADSL connection to the maximum connection available for the line - this maximum speed depends on the usual factors that are currently in place, but basically if your line can support a 2mb or 1mb connection it would be upgraded. These upgrades are happening between 28th February 2005 until 31st August 2005 in a controlled manner and are not a blanket upgrade for all users immediately.

NDO are always reviewing their broadband product ranges to remain competitive, therefore we are currently looking into the viability of offering this speed upgrade to all of our ADSL Broadband users, there are other factors involved such as managing the increase in bandwidth demands to be taken into account on the NDO network to ensure contention is not an issue. As part of this, the NDO management team had a meeting with our BT Account Manager and the BT Account Director on Thursday 10th February to discuss this upgrade taking place and a suitable timescale for implementation.

Accordingly NDO are also looking to launch shortly a Home 2mb service following the successful conclusions of the trials in late 2004 and early 2005.

As part of these upgrades, NDO are also looking to also offer a variety of new products and services to make the most of your ADSL broadband connections - including variable speed control, allowing you to change the speed of your connection as your needs vary; VoB (Voice over Broadband) making use of VoIP (Voice Over IP) and also Video-on-demand services - these should begin to become available from late Spring 2005.

More details on all of these upgrades will be released as soon as the plans have been finalised over the coming weeks.

The reason NDO are not rushing the announcement is due to our wish to ensure that the products and services we launch continue along the same lines of quality, performance and service that all of our offerings so far to date have had.

Please remember, when comparing NDO to other ISP’s – NDO’s ADSL Broadband products are uncapped, almost all of the products announced over the last few days have usage caps some set at very low levels; also NDO are the fastest ISP in the UK for January 2005 (source: ADSLGuide.org.uk).

Until there are applications that require the use of the higher speeds (such as the launch of our VoIP and video services), we estimate that only about 3% of our customers would currently make use of the increased speed – almost all applications as detailed below would not use the extra bandwidth.

Developments are in the pipe line that will mean over the next year higher speeds will be useful and we are planning to be in a position in the next 3 months to upgrade our users as BT roll out their exchange upgrades. There are a number of reasons why higher speeds are not that important to most users at the moment and include the following:

Gamers - Games are intended to use less than 128k of bandwidth so will not run any different on higher speed DSL line, it is the latency that is important. Latency will not decrease at all on a faster connection.

Web browsing/Surfing/Shopping - Web pages are unlikely to transfer noticeably faster on any connection above 512k as they are designed with slow speed connections in mind and are normally limited by the speed of the web server that hosts the site and not your connection speed. Only downloads of large files would benefit from an increased connection speed and then only provided the server you were downloading from was available across a congestion free connection.

Emails - Email messages are often quite small. It is only very large attachments that will transfer more quickly on a higher speed connection. Even with sending email, upload speeds are still limited to 256Kbps on all higher speed lines offering no improvement.

IM - Instant messaging/MSN/ICQ - Requires very little bandwidth at all, only actually requires a 56k connection, meaning 512k is more than enough.

Compressed VoIP - Requires very little bandwidth, 64-128k is usually more than acceptable for most voice calls.

Streaming videos - The maximum video streaming quality on many web sites is 300K which will work fine on a 512K connection.

Streaming radio - The maximum video streaming quality on many web sites is 192K which will work fine on a 512K connection.

VPN - Upload speeds are still limited to 256Kbps on all higher speed lines, meaning that even by implementing higher speed services at both sites, files will still only transfer at 256kbps max because that is the fastest the sending site can provide the data, regardless of your connection.

Video conferencing - Upload speeds are still limited to 256Kbps on all higher speed lines, therefore you would not be able to use a higher quality stream as you are limited by your own upstream.

Hosting services from home/office - Upload speeds are still limited to 256Kbps on all higher speed lines offering no improvement.

Updating web sites/ftp - Upload speeds are still limited to 256Kbps on all higher speed lines offering no improvement.

Transferring files from friends - Your friends are still likely to only have a product with a 256K upstream speed meaning that is the fastest that you will get a file from them.

Kind regards
Sam Hill

Development Director @ NDO
I fear you may well fall into the bracket of a customer NDO are prepared to loose if you persist in your 'threat to leave' because of the lack of a 2Mb service.
 

TRIaXOR™

ULTIMATE Member
it's already happened at plusnet :( since BT wholesale introducted CBC, ISPs are finding it VERY difficult to sustain heavy users and have introduced AUP's to try to curb the heavier users by introducing caps, plusnet tried one better by introducing a BBP (Bad Boy Pipe) which was a complete failure and in doing so damaged their reputation a bit :(

so if anyone is to blame, BT is for thier greed :mad:
 

lighterboy

ULTIMATE Member
...some of these downloads maybe in breach of both the NDO AUP and Fair Usage Policy. We do not condone downloads that breach copyright laws and use an unfair proportion of both our bandwidth and central pipe capacity to the detriment of other customers.

Where does it say that its only wanted to download illegal content?

It says some use of P2P is for ilegal content which NDO cant condone - how can they? An ISP is harly likey to say here "use your connection to download illegal films" are they? they would get shut down very quickly if they said using P2P for downloading copyright material is perfectly fine!

Also it says some of thse use for high bandwidth services are for P2P not the only use there areplenty of other uses for this - perhaps you should have also read the original thread on 2mb ADLS upgrades on the NDO forum which went on for 4 pages discussing indetail what uses you would have for more bandwidth.


The reason for waiting until July for the new prices is becuase thats about the mid-point of BT having completed the exchange upgrades to enable everyone to have a 2mb product - whats the point in telling people about them and then having to constantly revise prices or leaving the website saying To Be confirmed (as Plusnet have done) - BT are donig the upgrades between Feb and August so announcing prices for products that will be available for all users from August in july makes perfect sence.

The threads to read on the NDO forum are:

part 1 - http://www.ndousers.com/cgi-bin/cutecast.pl?forum=1&thread=1340
part 2 - http://www.ndousers.com/cgi-bin/cutecast.pl?forum=1&thread=1370

LB
 

lighterboy

ULTIMATE Member
TRIaXOR™ said:
it's already happened at plusnet :( since BT wholesale introducted CBC, ISPs are finding it VERY difficult to sustain heavy users and have introduced AUP's to try to curb the heavier users by introducing caps, plusnet tried one better by introducing a BBP (Bad Boy Pipe) which was a complete failure and in doing so damaged their reputation a bit :(


Yup, you have to remember ISP's have to pay for every megabyte of data you download as a transit charge, so the more you download the more it costs, with consumers demanding ever faster connections (so are capable of downloading so much more) for ever cheaper prices - something will have to snap otherwise the simple economics dont work - so I can certainly see almost every ISP having usage limits on their products and probably restrictions placed on P2P and other applications to attempt to reduce bandwidth usage and so costs to the ISP.


TRIaXOR - does PlusNet still have thier Bad Boys Pipe or was it quietly scrapped?
 

TRIaXOR™

ULTIMATE Member
As far as I know, it was scrapped, but in April a new FUP kicks in with the introduction of MaxDSL (At this time only 21 Exchanges can get it but more will be enabled in the coming months) the way it works is that you have 3 levels, if you download too much in month 1, you become a level 1 user and you are emailed warning you as such, month 2, if you continue it you are warned again and made a level 2, finally level 3, same again and your connection is throttled to 150K for the rest of the billing month..

however, if you heed the 1st warning and keep within the FUP your level 1 status is dropped, if you are in stage 2 and you keep within the FUP that month you are dropped to level 1 and if you keep within the fFUP on the second month the level 1 status is dropped (am i making sense?)

Also that I may point out that upstream is not counted in the FUP nor is bandwidth usage between 1am and 8am..

hope that clears things up a bit :D

Added: Heres a diagram explaining it from PlusNet
 

miffie

ULTIMATE Member
I am quite happy to wait until NDO have got things sorted out properly . I would rather they keep up their level of service that we are used to , then upgrade things when they are confident they have it right. I would rather they worked to a standard not a price.
miffie
 

cashpot

Casual Member
Reply

I have read what everyone has written and thank you for your comments. The point that I was trying to make (probably not very well) was that I fear that NDO management have just misunderstood how things are going in this fast moving industry. Whilst their explanation (apart from the bit about film downloaders) is all very laudable, I maintain they are just wrong.

Let's say that NDO keep to their schedule and offer a 2Meg connection for say a fiver a month above their competitors in July 2005. If I had moved away I would by then be on a new year contract with a new provider and would not be ABLE to return!

IF (and it is an IF) NDO have a lot of spare customers that they are prepared to loose (remebering again that most users don't know what a forum is, let alone reading one) these customers will just know that they are not getting what their neighbours are getting and will look elsewhere.

Numbers matter to people - especially in computing. My neighbour is getting (or has been promised a free upgrade to) 2 Meg and I am still on 500K is NOT good marketing. How many people are afraid to admit that they have a 2400 processor when their neighbours have a 2600 despite it not mattering one bit?!

What I am having great difficulty saying is that by the time NDO notice their subscribers are leaving it may just be too late to stop the rot!

Four months is a very long time in computing.

Rob.
 

GJH

Guest
cashpot said:
I fear that NDO management have just misunderstood how things are going in this fast moving industry. Whilst their explanation (apart from the bit about film downloaders) is all very laudable, I maintain they are just wrong.
I fear it is YOU that have misunderstood and have got it VERY wrong Cashpot.

NDO have been in business since 1995. THAT is a LONG time in the ISP world. Over that time NDO have ridden the highs and lows (including the dotcom boom and bust) and are STILL in business.

I'd say NDO DO in fact understand the industry they are in which is precisely WHY they are delaying making any rash decisions.

cashpot said:
If I had moved away I would by then be on a new year contract with a new provider and would not be ABLE to return!
If you move, then that is your fault. :D It's not NDO's fault that you can't have some faith and show some loyalty.

cashpot said:
(remebering again that most users don't know what a forum is, let alone reading one)
Why do you keep making such daft comments about other people/users/members? Some of your comments could be classed as insulting.

cashpot said:
these customers will just know that they are not getting what their neighbours are getting and will look elsewhere.
I couldn't care less what my neighbour has/gets to be honest.

Several people I know have the latest, greatest, expensive, fastest computers but still don't know how to use them to their full potential. :D

I know people with faster line speeds too -- but in general, it's not all that faster (except for downloads) in day-to-day use anyway.

cashpot said:
Numbers matter to people - especially in computing. My neighbour is getting (or has been promised a free upgrade to) 2 Meg and I am still on 500K is NOT good marketing.
Good marketing for who exactly? Maybe NDO will upgrade some of their users to 1 or 2 Mb for free. Who knows? At the present time BT aren't exactly sure of the roadmap themselves so it's textbook anyway.

cashpot said:
How many people are afraid to admit that they have a 2400 processor when their neighbours have a 2600 despite it not mattering one bit?!
Errr you REALLY care what your neighbour thinks? Some people don't try to keep up with the Joneses. My neighbour could have an 8Mb line with a 3Ghz PC on the end of it for all I care. It's really not that important IMHO.

cashpot said:
What I am having great difficulty saying is that by the time NDO notice their subscribers are leaving it may just be too late to stop the rot!
What I think you are having trouble understanding is that NDO have very likely considered this. On account of the fact there IS so much uncertainty, and given what has ALREADY happened to some ISP's who HAVE rushed out revised product offerings which have blown back on them slightly, I applaud NDO for their honest approach.

You clearly don't which is your perogative. But I completely fail to see what exactly your point (if there really is one) is.

Do you run an ISP and have 10 years experience in doing so?
 

cashpot

Casual Member
Even Clara.Net offer 2 Meg

I thought that the whole idea of a forum was to be able to air ideas with which others may or may not agree. This thread seems to have deteriorated into far more than simple discussion - it's getting personal!

I fear that unfortunately I do not have the vocabulary to say what I would like without causing offence so I shall desist. I will though say this.

Even Clara.Net who I regard as having a similar standing and a similar longevity to NDO (I host 11 domains with them) are offering a 2 Meg product. True it's expensive (at £10 more than their 1 Meg and £11 more than NDO 1 Meg) but the offer is there if people choose to take it up.

My original "complaint" was that NDO have made a business mistake - pure and simple, I stand by that. Time will tell who is right. I shall comment no further on this thread.

Rob.
 
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