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Brexit

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Bob2002

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Since nobody has started a thread for this and it may potentially be one of the most significant votes in our lifetime(or perhaps that is hype over reality?) I thought I may as well tee off.

Couple of videos that may be interesting ... the first covers possible existence outside the EU. We know what the alternative is like, and the press and government throw some fairly dubious figures around implying there is no other option but what would the reality look like?



[youtube]aiUkyAb2L7o[/youtube]

And a fairly honest and reasonable debate between the two sides here -


[youtube]V6D-OvgCCWg[/youtube]

Feel free to contribute to the thread in the run-up to June 23rd. :)
 
We live in a capitalist society. The stability of companies and their value underpins everything - peoples' pensions, taxes, incomes, public services - there is no aspect of our lives that isn't somehow touched by the financial markets. And therein lies the problem of the Brexiter's arguments. Markets are a forecasting mechanism, prices go up and down in anticipation of good or bad performance and usually eventually correct themselves based on actual performance some time later. The financial analysts who cause market swings are convinced that leaving the EU would be bad for the economy, so if there is a leave vote, share prices will fall. They will fall whether the analysts are right or not about the real consequences of Brexit, and if they fall far enough it will cause the financial crash they were predicting - it is a self fulfilling prophecy. With consumer confidence broken, companies will actually become worth less and the usual correction after an overly pessemistic forecast won't happen. Real damage is done and we all pay the price.

All the reasoned arguments about Brexit being good or bad for the UK have little relevance. It will be bad because the analysts think so. Markets are already being led by the nose by Brexit opinion polls, the FTSE100 fell yesterday because of one: http://goo.gl/ANJ2v3
 
On a more positive note, £ v RMB (Chinese Yuan), exchange rates are at their highest for a number of years (nearly £1 = 10RMB), perhaps if we leave, they will return to the heady days of £1 = 16RMB
 
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In the simplest of views.. I sell on Amazon and on eBay.. quite a bit of it goes to EU countries and I enjoy the lack of forms and other paperwork when sending items.

One of my closest friends (who I think will be voting to leave!) works in a technical support center for a multi-national company who has their customer services based in this country. Leaving the EU may change their view on the sustainability of having the support services run from the UK... I commented this to him and he went "oh"; as if he hadn't thought about the implications of leaving might affect his employment / employer.

The internet has no borders and online crime (of which I've investigated a lot of recently) certainly doesn't have any borders. If being in the EU improves law enforcement co-operation then this is important and will probably only get more and more important as time goes on and the internet and crime evolves.

Ref: Stupid rules - like the power limit on hovers, pastie tax? and other EU imposed rules: Stupid but not inconvenient enough to offset the above benefits.

Ref: Immigration... I've not been affected by it in any way that I can personally quantify. Probably down to the area that I live in and other people's experiences elsewhere might be very, very different. But for me - the immigration argument doesn't come into the picture as I've only got the tainted and likely biased news reports to go by.

The EU has flaws but is far more likely to be improved or reformed if we are in it than if we are out. Even if we are out the EU will still affect us hugely.

Those are my thoughts.

Tom - www.mouselike.org
 
no one has mentioned human rights yet, something the Tories have been trying to opt out of for the past few years unsuccessfully and then there are employment laws, in fact there have been admissions from the Tories that leaving will supposedly allow employment laws to be more flexible.. that basically means in Tory speak "we can change the rules to suit employers rather than employees" (this could potentially mean our right to paid holiday etc could disappear along with lower sickness pay).

and this british bill of rights worries me because l dont trust the Tories to respect our current rights as they will do anything to retain power.. that said l think Murdoch gave the best argument for staying in the EU, it was something along the lines of he could walk into westminister and the government would do as they were told but the EU told him to take a hike..

and lets face it lve heard every stupid argument from the brexit campaign including, the promise of cheaper energy bills which lets face it is a false promise to get their foot in the door just like the no top down reorganisation of the NHS and we all know how thats doing after all the defunding.. their latest reason for exiting the EU is supposedly immigrants are making rents high but lm more inclined to believe that the money grabbing landlords are just gouging us for all they can.

and they havent given any kind of assurances regarding those brits who have settled within the EU who may have to uproot and come back.

to be quite honest tho from what lve been hearing about all those who complain about the EU its all about immigration by those who dont give a hoot about the fact we have the same freedom of movement within the EU, not to mention the fact that when our government went to Syria and started bombing they inevitably would displace civilians who wanted to escape the voilence which l feel we have no right to turn away regardless of my lack of support for the campaign.. after all if something like that hypothetically happened here ld want to escape too.

either way lve already added my vote, posted it over the weekend.
 
To anyone who enjoys a drink and likes to visit pubs if you end up living in an area that is mainly muslim they run their areas we have a no go one here. Shop keepers threatened pubs attacked you can't even walk on same side of the street as the mosque. they patrol the streets in the night and english people are the target. Sadly the police do not go in those areas.

Go out at night find a mainly muslim area and look before you vote, then think Turkey just closed all catholic churches claiming the property they join EU they are going to come her for free housing food and all they can eat payments.
Yes I have been called an infadel I have seen the radical side I also know that some are not radical but the crowds heading to here are not civilians mainly they are fighting age men look at the trainload that arrived here every one on the platform were men.

A friend lives in council flat recently her mobility has deteriated she now needs a mobility scooter to get around. A neighbour died who had ground floor flat she requested to move from her first floor 1 bed flat to the ground floor 1 bed flat this was refused as any empty flats are now for refugees the 1 bed has 3 men 1 women all young and fit to work but sit out all day in good weather in the shared garden the others can't use now as washing vanishes if they peg out if they try to sit out they are made uncomfortable.

This isn't what you read about this is what I have seen, it is really something to take stock off and we are the target two schools round here had to close due to bomb threats the only two schools that are close the mainly muslim area.

Other good reasons to get out are Cyprus and France both have money problems that they will get help to solve at our expence.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...barrasses-francois-hollande-with-8471077.html


https://youtu.be/vTCIwo3cEvU

https://youtu.be/oT_cO7OlTaE
 
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Very interesting experience. Thank you for sharing. As noted - my lack of experience is down to the area that I live in having a low population of non-natives.

Do you know the origin of the Muslims you've experienced? As far as my quick research brings up: they would all need to be from Cyprus to have taken advantage of the free movement within the EU.
The other major Islamic countries in "Europe" (not the EU!) Azerbaijan, Kosovo, Bosnia–Herzegovina, Albania and Turkey are not part of the EU.
(See table on the right of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe and member country list https://www.gov.uk/eu-eea)

Would leaving the EU change anything about the ease of migrating from these non EU countries? I feel like you may be attributing bad immigration to the EU when the immigrants are likely to have come from countries that are not in fact part of the EU and free movement programme.

(Also, this is basically the first and only research I've done on this subject ^ so please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm also unlikely to watch hour long videos or documentaries on youtube :). Source websites would be ideal.)

Tom - www.mouselike.org
 
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A very good point.
All I can find is that the UK doesn't have to accept free movement of Turks (but all other EU countries would) but it doesn't state why and how long that would last. But a valid worry if it changes in the future and something to think about.

Tom - www.mouselike.org
 
from what lve read over the years and currently when concerning terrorism.. most acts within the EU have been committed by EU nationals.. those who have been radicalised.

and lets not forget since 9/11 the western world has been very anti-muslim (lm just saying whenever certain elements are involved first and foremost the muslim factor is pushed without informing ppl that its a radicalised version of islam).. lm sure we all agree here that not everyone can be tarred with the same brush purely on who they are and what religion they support.. and lm also not saying there arent areas where certain undesirables run around making ppl feel unsafe.. but that happens everywhere in some way or form be it from those who look eastern or normal brits making law abiding muslims or those claiming benefits feel unsafe.

either way l look at it tho, immigration isnt the problem.. its the fact we are going over to muslim countries and creating the problem.. and lets face it if the western world didnt keep arming rebels we wouldnt have al-qaida or ISIS.. both groups started by the western world meddling in other countries affairs.. take the cold war era americans trained rebels back then to help fend of possible russian invaders, with syria we and the americans took issue with the president Assad and armed the same rebels who have now become ISIS.. and this is what has lead to allot of muslims immigrants.. and what do some brits do about it? they make sure they know they are unwelcome thereby pushing impressionable muslims towards extremist views. (do a google search pre-cold war images and you will see a very different side of islam one where women walked about without being forced to cover up (however l digress).


what lm saying is if you vote based on immigration l doubt much will change even if we vote out.. immigrants will get here no matter what and we do need EU in some regards to that respect. l dont disagree with having a referendum but at this moment under the Tories l can only see ulterior motives to suit themselves.. take Boris it wasnt more than few years ago he was pro-EU which says to me his heading of the brexit campaign is nothing more than a way for him to weasel his way into being the next PM its entirely a move to improve his career as a politician...
 
Ahh immigration, fun one.. that. Incidentally I know a lot of people of the Muslim faith around here and we have no such problems, in fact they're often a lot nicer than the dominant Christians :) . Mind you not one of them originally comes from the EU and most are all legal migrants, meaning they often came here as part of their job and then settled through the generations.

As such the ones I know tend to adopt more of a British culture because they were raised here or come from more stable countries, albeit still practising muslims. The mistake people often make is to assume that the faith is the problem, when in fact it's more an issue of culture and some countries have very different cultures.. just as some Christian countries are utterly bonkers (a few come to mind in Africa).

For example, most people from Turkey or Malaysia are more westernised, which is in stark contrast to those from deeper in the Middle East where the cultures can be very different.. perhaps worryingly so. So you can’t paint a whole faith with one very wide brush, the world is more complicated than that.

As for Turkey, that one has been going on your years and more than a few countries in the EU have a veto and promise to use it. So even if by some miracle Turkey did join, it's not going to be at least for another 5-15 years (EC's words, not mine) and certainly not while the president is acting the way he is or until the current conflicts are solved.

Similarly, as Tom says, leaving the EU won't actually change much on the immigration front because even none EU states in Europe still have to sign-up to many of the same rules as already exist in order to continue trade. It just means that now we'd have to accept broadly the same rules, but wouldn't have any real influence to change them.

Now I’m not saying that there aren’t problems with immigration, albeit perhaps more issues stemming from Eastern Europe rather than the Middle East, but the idea that this will be solved via an EU exit is sadly wrong. The change has to come from within the EU itself and if it doesn't then we'll see another return to fascism, which always works out well, right? :) . But change is even less likely to happen if the UK removes its influence.
 
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In the EU we cannot deport an immagrant even if he commits a crime out of the EU we can deport these individuals regardless of which country they come from. The EU human rights helps the criminals more than it helps the servivors or family of a loved one killed, yet that criminal had not thought about the human or that persons human rights to live in peace that they injured.

The EU is hiding finiancial problems Cypruss has already been bailed out and are again broke France is heading that way stay in we fall also. Small businesses suffer under the EU large companies love it as they can control.
We lose our freedom to select who crosses our borders, we will lose our freedom to be governed by who we vote for.

We are an Island we have always been independant and prospered and Norway has proved you can grow strong outside the EU they did and are in a better position than us economically.

My vote for leaving is based on three factors immigration, NHS and independance the ability to select where our taxes go not be told where and how much we have to pay.

Fishermen lost their ability to fish our own waters yet we have to buy the fish from our waters from EU fishermen who cross the channel to fish.
The EU has always been pros and cons but the pros side over the years has fallen in favour of France and other EU countries we stay in we lose our heritage our sovrenty.
 
To anyone who enjoys a drink and likes to visit pubs if you end up living in an area that is mainly muslim they run their areas we have a no go one here. Shop keepers threatened pubs attacked you can't even walk on same side of the street as the mosque. they patrol the streets in the night and english people are the target. Sadly the police do not go in those areas.

Go out at night find a mainly muslim area and look before you vote, then think Turkey just closed all catholic churches claiming the property they join EU they are going to come her for free housing food and all they can eat payments.
Yes I have been called an infadel I have seen the radical side I also know that some are not radical but the crowds heading to here are not civilians mainly they are fighting age men look at the trainload that arrived here every one on the platform were men.

where is this place you talk of this happens ? of course idiots live everywhere, I walked pass lots of mosques no one stopped me or said some thing even the infamous Finsbury park mosque. tell me which area police can't go

too much dailymail and express ? for your info they write for money I can get a total fake story on this papers for £££

besides this is nothing to do with we in EU. with EU we do get human rights and few other laws to protect us. Of course which means criminals make use of that as well. we just have to lock them up if they commit the crime here. we can't just getaway by deporting them. we tax people when they work so we should deal with that.

I work in a tech company where we need a very special skilled to deal with large amount of data we deal with. we don't need them permanently we need them for a short time. now it's easy as people from EU come and work if we loose that we might even be go out of business.

UK dont have it's colonies any more no one will respect us, even US of A said you will have to wait for the trade agreement.

most of the money comes in by EU companies using London City as it's financial capital if we come out they might have to change that.

we can't pick and choose do you know how many UK businesses is actually owned by EU companies.

Scotland want to leave us if we leave EU. we even become small country.
 
Norway and Swiss has freedom of moment so they can't stop people from coming in they have to have to Human Rights Law as well.

if we go with that agreement non of your arguments are valid
 
I make one simple case to all. I am sure all of us can name our MP. How many of us can name our MEP?
 
I make one simple case to all. I am sure all of us can name our MP. How many of us can name our MEP?

because MEPs are elected differently. not locally like MPs. I'm sure all can name one MEP UKIP idiot Nigel Frage or some one.
 
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US of A said you will have to wait for the trade agreement.
We are already covered by Free Trade Agreement and WTO agreements. If leaving the EU, the Lisbon Treaty already states that an agreement has to be put into place with a former EU member. The UK will be fine!

most of the money comes in by EU companies using London City as it's financial capital if we come out they might have to change that.
Unlikely to change. The City already trades heavy volumes of other currencies. Banks from all over the world have their HQs here, because being in one spot makes it easy. There not all going to move because of EU exit.

we can't pick and choose do you know how many UK businesses is actually owned by EU companies.
If you referring to Large business (not the majority which is SME's) then like all big businesses, they will adapt to the local market. The UK is massive captive audience and that won't change. Big businesses already operate across borders.

Scotland want to leave us if we leave EU. we even become small country.
Do they really or is this just politics talking. The reality is, Scotland, first has to vote to leave the UK (again) and then they would be considered no different to Turkey. It would take years.
 
because MEPs are elected differently. not locally like MPs. I'm sure all can name one MEP UKIP idiot Nigel Frage or some one.

That was not my question. I said name "your" MEP, though being in the South East yourself, I suspect you might be covered by the man with a mission.
 
We are already covered by Free Trade Agreement and WTO agreements. If leaving the EU, the Lisbon Treaty already states that an agreement has to be put into place with a former EU member. The UK will be fine!

how long that will take, already pound is down just by having poll lossing few %


Unlikely to change. The City already trades heavy volumes of other currencies. Banks from all over the world have their HQs here, because being in one spot makes it easy. There not all going to move because of EU exit.

how do you know ? I worked in multinational before they move staff with in EU like every day, if every one have to get visa to come here that will create headache and they will move some where else. where they can

If you referring to Large business (not the majority which is SME's) then like all big businesses, they will adapt to the local market. The UK is massive captive audience and that won't change. Big businesses already operate across borders.
again only reason they operate freely because of freedom of moment. otherwise they will move to other county that will do that, why do you think Norway and Swiss signed up to that.

Do they really or is this just politics talking. The reality is, Scotland, first has to vote to leave the UK (again) and then they would be considered no different to Turkey. It would take years.

Turkey taking ages because France and UK dont like it. If Scotland want to join and UK is not a member then they have no issues joining.
 
That was not my question. I said name "your" MEP, though being in the South East yourself, I suspect you might be covered by the man with a mission.

what ?? man with a mission lol, He is an idiot who says dumb things. not even man enough to keep his promises that he will resign if he didn't win a MP seat.
 
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