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Brexit

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most brexiters are for privatising the NHS... but from the things lve read even before Cameron forced his way into no.10 there was already plans to privatise the NHS despite Camerons NHS promise.. but then this government has done allot without a mandate.. how can they be trusted after we leave the EU.
 
The EU has nothing to do with the NHS. It will suffer if we leave, though, because the economy will falter, resulting in less tax revenue to the exchequer, which in turn will require further public spending cuts. As for the migrant "problem", the Daily Mail has a lot to answer for.
 
On the subject of selloffs:
the pipeline was extended and developed to allow connection to: all UK-based oil refineries and major fuel processing depots; as well as all major civilian airports - including Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted and Manchester - during the period of the Cold War. As a result of the 2000 fuel protests, Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon instructed the MoD to plan for extension of the GPSS to beat any future fuel blockade.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLH_Pipeline_System
In May 2012 the UK Government announced plans to sell all or part of the GPSS[4] and legislation to enable it to do so was included in the Energy Act 2013.

Three years after announcing the plan to sell GPSS, on 20 March 2015, the GPSS was acquired by Spanish oil network operator Compañía Logística de Hidrocarburos (CLH) for £82m.[5] The MoD also signed a contract with CLH for the military to be continued to be supplied with fuel via the GPSS.
Seriously

This is a pretty critical bit of infrastructure sold off with little fanfare or consultation.
If anyone is interested in things like this - it was reported in the Private Eye (magazine) years ago.

Edit: Also note it is now owned by a Spanish company.. Would leaving the EU affect the distribution or cost of distribution of fuel around the UK?

Tom - www.mouselike.org
 
we are off topic, tories want to come out of EU as that is blocking things that they want to do, eg Human right law protects everyone. but paid to write papers trying make that as only helping criminals and pedos. with that law in place government can't do few things they want to do. like monitoring, some employee benefits we get etc

interns of deporting criminals that is nothing to do with HR laws if the crime is committed here and the country don't want to accept the criminal we can't send it. If we do he will be a free man on that country.

Kits didn't say which area she/he was talking about the muslim area where non Muslims can't go including police.

If you give me a location I will go there with some beer and take a picture with locals near a road sign. is this the same thing US idiot Donald Trump and some lady who says stupid things all the time said the same thing right.

people who thinks we get more sovereignty if we leave EU kidding them self, It's our gov will do all what suits them and their doners best. now we have some control over what our governments are allowed to do.
 
KDS just logged in and read what has been posted so don't try to make it I am not replying I do have a life away from this forum.
Try Oldham where most have left and the schools where white english children are the minority.

As for papers I do not buy any papers haven't for years my knowledge is from life experiences and friends affected by the issues.
 
Remain outline new stance on EU :hrmph: -


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the one big thing thats bothering me tho is that when it comes to most who want to leave the EU its not about anything economic, its always tho talking about immigration.. like "they are taking our jobs" or "they only come here for benefits, housing and free healthcare" and the biggest lie of all is how they supposedly get money thrown at them and how rents a rising because they are here.

employment is falling because of CEOs cost cutting in order to pay more to their shareholders while pushing their current employees to do more for less. the NHS is failing because the government have been cutting funding not because of immigration and this so called health tourism there is no proof in fact there has been an independent investigation into this which which found no proof if it.

as for benefits, immigrants just cant claim straight away in fact the majority do tend to find employment working in the lowest paid sectors and they usually have to wait months before being able to claim anything if they do.and they dont get free money to buy cars and such which my family keep on telling me.. in fact every time lm told such stories its usually always a friend of a friend told them not the actual person who experienced for example some polish person walking in with a £5000 cheque from the DWP to buy a car.. theres no way in hell the DWP will give someone that much money.

as for rents, it has nothing to do with immigration, its just money grabbing landlords gouging as much as they can from their tenants..

dont get me wrong the EU isnt perfect, but if you based decisions purely on immigration then l hate to say it, but its a very narrow minded view which doesnt take into consideration how much we will loose.

heres some other things l think are important (quoted from the Vox political blog which makes some good points which was in related to a recent Question time episode).

1 Will leaving the EU decrease chances of getting a house? Yes. Because Tories won’t build any – they want prices to rise.

At least one person came back to me after I suggested this, claiming that house-building under Margaret Thatcher was much higher than under New Labour. That may be true (I haven’t checked recently) but it doesn’t change the fact that house-building now is at an 80-year-low.

2. There is a huge amount of racism informing much of the debate. An audience member, referring to people from foreign countries living in the UK, actually said, “We need breathing-room”, or words to that effect. He was, of course, paraphrasing Hitler, who said the same words in 1938, prior to World War II. Those who do not learn from history are destined to repeat it.

this is one of my main worries, that ppl are purely voting based on immigration because most of what l hear now seems make me feel we are walking a very thin line of hate.

4. Frank Field claimed David Cameron called the referendum in order to keep the Conservative Party together, rather than in the interests of the UK. There is much to support this claim – Cameron wanted to halt the rise of UKIP, which had stolen two of his backbenchers, and he wanted to quell dissent among the backbenchers who remained. How do you think that’s working out for him?

l agree with this, Camerons position has been faltering for quite a while now with talk of his leadership being challenged, and lets face it Cameron will do anything to retain power, this referendum is just proof he will do anything to appease his critics within the party. not to mention lve heard talk from both UKIP and some Cons saying if the vote to remain in wins then they will push for another referendum (tho l doubt it will happen it just shows me the mindset of those desperate to get out and profit from it).

5. There was considerable debate about workers’ rights. Owen Jones was correct in his analysis – that workers’ rights in the UK are only protected because of EU laws that this country cannot repeal while it is a member. If the UK votes to ‘Leave’, then the Conservative Party will dismantle those rights and we can kiss goodbye to working time limitations, sick pay, holiday pay, weekend pay and any other hard-won rights that have been enshrined in law since the 1800s. And no, just because we had such laws before the EU came along, that doesn’t mean the Tories won’t end them.

l think this is a pretty important point, and Patel and IDS have already hinted at their dislike of certain employment laws.. and l dont trust the Tories without the EU to keep such rights enshrined in law.

6. The claim that the UK has lost sovereignty to the EU is bunk. For clarity: We are not at the mercy of the bureaucrats in the European Commission. The Commission proposes new EU laws, but the UK may send any such legislation back for reconsideration, or may veto it altogether. EU laws only come into effect in this country if they are ratified by the UK’s Parliament.

sovereignty has always been the main argument of the leave campaign and those who hate the EU, but like the above point states.. Brussles doesnt dictate our laws our governments choose which ones to opt into.. politicians who complain however obviously have something to loose if they are so adamant the EU is impeding them.

7. The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) was mentioned by Owen Jones – and quickly buried by the others. As the proposed agreement currently stands, it will support the increasing privatisation of public services and protect such moves with the threat of legal action against any government that tries to re-nationalise a privatised business. It will drive down the quality of goods to a lowest common denominator, set by the USA. And it will drive down workers’ rights and wages to a lowest common denominator, also. The deal is the subject of lengthy – and private – negotiations between the EU and the USA, and the only way to improve it is to be part of those negotiations. Other EU nation states have expressed serious concerns about the deal in its current form and seem likely to veto it if it goes unchanged. If the UK leaves the EU, of course, the Conservative Government will be free to strike whatever deal it wants – including one that is even worse for UK workers.

l think this says it all really.... if there is more profit to be made the Tories will take advantage of that and once out we wont have all those pesky EU employment/human rights laws that cant currently be repealed stopping them.. because you can bet that the laws will be edited in order to allow things that under the current discussions to give more power to corporations.. a good example of the Conservatives doing just that would be the queens speech.. which stated if the queens speech was amended after having been submitted for the queen to read then the PM should resign, that line was removed after Cameron caved into pressure regarding the protection of the NHS in relation to TTIP.

8. A consensus grew among viewers on Twitter that many of those planning to vote ‘Remain’ were doing so because they believe the UK needs the EU to provide checks and balances with regard to the Conservative Government and its plans for our future. They do not trust the Tories to act in the best interests of the people. This of course attracted claims that anyone voting ‘Remain’ in order to hinder the Tories was actually voting for David Cameron and George Osborne, which is nonsense. The referendum is not a vote for a particular party or any of its members – it is a question put to the UK electorate. One might just as well say voting ‘Remain’ is a vote for Jeremy Corbyn (which is true, in exactly the same way it would be a vote for Cameron, even though they are very clearly not campaigning on the same platform).

l find some truth in this with regards to the Tories and stopping them from doing whatever they want but essentially the whole situation boils down to us and the EU not party based politics.

11. Mr Field went on to claim that migration into the UK from Europe has caused a fall in wages. This is not true.

l think this one speaks for itself.

12. Claims that EU laws and regulations were responsible for the UK’s problems met strong opposition from people on Twitter, who saw the referendum as an attempt to distract voters from the real cause of such problems – the Conservative Government in Westminster.

another good point imho.

13. One question asked whether David Cameron’s days as prime minister are numbered. This seems likely, whichever way the vote goes. Not only is he facing a revolt from his own party, but the entire government may be removed if the election expenses fraud inquiry unseats more than 17 Conservative MPs, as seems possible at the moment.

this is one reason why l dont think we should be having a referendum now.. its not the time especially when you consider that if these MPs are found guilty then it brings into question the whole general elections of 2015.. it would mean they didnt have a majority because it was only gained by fraud.

Source of my quotes: http://voxpoliticalonline.com/2016/...sleading-the-eu-referendum-campaign-has-been/
 
the one big thing thats bothering me tho is that when it comes to most who want to leave the EU its not about anything economic, its always tho talking about immigration.. like "they are taking our jobs" or "they only come here for benefits, housing and free healthcare" and the biggest lie of all is how they supposedly get money thrown at them and how rents a rising because they are here.

employment is falling because of CEOs cost cutting in order to pay more to their shareholders while pushing their current employees to do more for less. the NHS is failing because the government have been cutting funding not because of immigration and this so called health tourism there is no proof in fact there has been an independent investigation into this which which found no proof if it.

as for benefits, immigrants just cant claim straight away in fact the majority do tend to find employment working in the lowest paid sectors and they usually have to wait months before being able to claim anything if they do.and they dont get free money to buy cars and such which my family keep on telling me.. in fact every time lm told such stories its usually always a friend of a friend told them not the actual person who experienced for example some polish person walking in with a £5000 cheque from the DWP to buy a car.. theres no way in hell the DWP will give someone that much money.

as for rents, it has nothing to do with immigration, its just money grabbing landlords gouging as much as they can from their tenants..

dont get me wrong the EU isnt perfect, but if you based decisions purely on immigration then l hate to say it, but its a very narrow minded view which doesnt take into consideration how much we will loose.

heres some other things l think are important (quoted from the Vox political blog which makes some good points which was in related to a recent Question time episode).





this is one of my main worries, that ppl are purely voting based on immigration because most of what l hear now seems make me feel we are walking a very thin line of hate.



l agree with this, Camerons position has been faltering for quite a while now with talk of his leadership being challenged, and lets face it Cameron will do anything to retain power, this referendum is just proof he will do anything to appease his critics within the party. not to mention lve heard talk from both UKIP and some Cons saying if the vote to remain in wins then they will push for another referendum (tho l doubt it will happen it just shows me the mindset of those desperate to get out and profit from it).



l think this is a pretty important point, and Patel and IDS have already hinted at their dislike of certain employment laws.. and l dont trust the Tories without the EU to keep such rights enshrined in law.



sovereignty has always been the main argument of the leave campaign and those who hate the EU, but like the above point states.. Brussles doesnt dictate our laws our governments choose which ones to opt into.. politicians who complain however obviously have something to loose if they are so adamant the EU is impeding them.



l think this says it all really.... if there is more profit to be made the Tories will take advantage of that and once out we wont have all those pesky EU employment/human rights laws that cant currently be repealed stopping them.. because you can bet that the laws will be edited in order to allow things that under the current discussions to give more power to corporations.. a good example of the Conservatives doing just that would be the queens speech.. which stated if the queens speech was amended after having been submitted for the queen to read then the PM should resign, that line was removed after Cameron caved into pressure regarding the protection of the NHS in relation to TTIP.



l find some truth in this with regards to the Tories and stopping them from doing whatever they want but essentially the whole situation boils down to us and the EU not party based politics.



l think this one speaks for itself.



another good point imho.



this is one reason why l dont think we should be having a referendum now.. its not the time especially when you consider that if these MPs are found guilty then it brings into question the whole general elections of 2015.. it would mean they didnt have a majority because it was only gained by fraud.

Source of my quotes: http://voxpoliticalonline.com/2016/...sleading-the-eu-referendum-campaign-has-been/

Totally agree with you. leave companion makes me angry as they lie with out facts. non of their points have any merits. this uneducated unskilled fools sadly many now (thanks to Labour) believes them.
 
Let's not denigrate debates like this to general insults.

People on both sides of the debate can make perfectly reasonable and well educated arguments, although obviously there are times when more extreme opinions can also be expressed.

Never the less it's wrong to plaster one side or the other as unskilled or uneducated, which doesn't help anything and is often not correct. Everybody is entitled to an opinion and everybody has had a different experience in life, which should not be dismissed out of hand.

It's also a classic example of why it's easy to moan about politicians, but when everybody is asked to decide such an important and divisive decision (i.e. like politicians have to do on a daily basis) then often we can all become just as "bad".
 
yes sorry it was late night ;-) but have u seen the people in the leave camp, M Gove guy, Boris the joker , hypocrite Nigel F and edl NF BF people I'm sure IS, black panthers and other extremist are for leave companion as well ;-)

we should put all leave campaigners in one house and do a live video with their supporters :D I will watch that :-)
 
Not being a Cynic or anything, but I am expecting a government "leak" around next weekend, stating the Queen is going to vote* to Stay in Europe.

Despite the fact I am REALLY happy we finally get a say (they have been promising since I was at school!!); I do find it highly suspicious that the referendum should be timed to coincide with Brendas 90th birthday celebrations.

* yes, I know she cant vote, but Stun/Daily Fail readers will believe anything if it is printed in their daily rag.
 
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I agree with Mark.J remarks like that are not what we expect to see in a debate if it turns into personal attacks then shgow lack of any real information to stay.
 
we should put all leave campaigners in one house and do a live video with their supporters :D I will watch that :-)

This still seems to be making things personal for a good debate you do need both sides not just one sadly our present government lie through the teeth on almost everything and yes I am a conservative.

Also stop reading the morning rags they are as bad and the BBC will censor what they are told to most of what is happening over there we do not see.

How many bilions will we have to pay to bail out the Greek government as they are broke again then Germany are heading that way.
 
We've been here before -


[youtube]M5ks5tmNwCY[/youtube]

A few links to encourage you to watch the whole debate(you should, for perspective), for "Leave" - this and this, and for "Remain" this. :nod:
 
This still seems to be making things personal for a good debate you do need both sides not just one sadly our present government lie through the teeth on almost everything and yes I am a conservative.

Also stop reading the morning rags they are as bad and the BBC will censor what they are told to most of what is happening over there we do not see.

How many bilions will we have to pay to bail out the Greek government as they are broke again then Germany are heading that way.

It's hard not to make fun of the leave campaigners , Gove I never heard of him before Boris he doesn't care about EU only thing he is after his party leadership. he has to do some thing to win it so he is lying through the teeth, If fact he just copied the same **** UKIP was saying for years.

Most respectable business CEOs are saying single market is better, and this make sense.

Greek bail out, If we not part of EU all they have to do is tax our exports and imports (we do import and export a lot from EU) to get that money they need. We wont even get a chance to say not to bail them out as we wont be part of it.

Most leave campaigners don't care about any thing else other than immigration. They think it will stop if we out of EU. it might for a short time, long term this will affect housing market so banks so all other businesses connected. EU can screw us over if we out of it. we dont have that much to export to India or china.
 
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As always even in debates independent doesn't always mean truly independent on one of the debates they used a someone who is EU funded as the independent view about the stay or leave. To me if they have to use hidden information then it becomes a whitewash to convince people to stay when the opposite is the best course of action.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/677025/BBC-in-referendum-BIAS-row-over-Brexit-report

well express is a very balanced paper :P guess they didn't know Diana would have love to be in EU :D

their is no hidden information, I will listen to people who get paid millions a year and have a track record of running large businesses and contributed to the UK success,

not some idiot who was a ex London mayor who done nothing apart from the Olympics , another MP no one heard of and UKIP idiot even his party people don't like him and some rich business people who had questionable business practices
 
that is the problem the rich lobby the EU all the time while the small businesss don't this is done at the expense of the smaller business who have a harder time to trade thanks to EU red tape. England has 80% small companies so we suffer more hence why a large number of people who see the other side from rich business men lining their pockets like our government.
 
I've been in business as a sole trader for about 11 years now and as far as I know (unless I'm not doing something I should be) I've had no EU imposed red tape.

Tom - www.mouselike.org
 
Just had an email from the website I have my shares listed with and thios is what they are saying.

The FTSE this week

Our outlook last week had just one criteria for optimism. It said the FTSE 100 needed better than 6,270 for the potential of happy times and above 6,290 to confirm them. On Tuesday, and back at work, it almost felt like the market had read our report and interpreted it as a set of instructions for the day. The FTSE opened at 6,270, spiked a bit to 6,290. And that was it.

What followed was a pretty average week in the doldrums with the market eventually stuffing itself back below the immediate downtrend by breaking 6,220 on Wednesday. This spoiled a week which had started with slight optimism.

However, it most emphatically did not signal the market was about to fall off a cliff. Instead, it tends to enforce the feeling we're marching on the spot until the EuroShambles thing is resolved, one way or another.

Rather oddly, we were knocking around thoughts in-house and we suspect a 'Leave' vote might actually be good for the markets as it would risk shaking things up pretty firmly and forcing direction. Whereas a 'Remain' vote only tends to guarantee more of the same "stuck in a trend feeling" we're getting.

They used to say wars were ultimately good for the economy and perhaps a Leave vote will have a similar effect without the unpleasant side effects of battle. Of course, our only motive in this train of thought is to make our job more interesting, perhaps not the sanest method of choosing to vote!

Near-term, the market now needs better than 6,288 to signal growth to 6,365 next with secondary a more interesting longer term 6,416 points. Or even 6,540 if things go nuts.

http://www.iii.co.uk/articles/322714/could-leave-vote-be-good-ftse-100

Drsox maybe you are not trading in the areas the big business are lobbying but as said each to their own have to remember all that has happened over the years and the hoops we had to jump through, Germany and England pay most in England has only 4% EU representation in the EU not enough to stop the plans they have. We could become the bank roll for the EU with now returns French farmers get better deals than UK farmers this information is from a very large dairy farmer who has spent his years breeding showing and judging dairy herds. Our fishermen are another tragic loss they lost their bisunesses due to red tape from EU they can't fish our waters got paid to destry boats because they couldn't work to get a living now we buy english caught fish but from other EU country boats.
Sadly this is the last chance to save our country from being swollowed up under the EU most of our laws now come from unelected EU representatives not our own government. Easy question do you want to elect who you want to run our country and they decide our laws or elect a puppet where EU pull all the strings?
 
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