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Campaign for broadband in Hampshire: Froyle, Bentley, Alton areas

That's highly annoying that Bentley, is once again not on the list. In the past I have emailed BT's CEO about problems with broadband and he has always got a good result. Maybe you should email him and ask when our exchange might be upgraded?
 
I seriously doubt the exchange will be upgraded, *unless* we get a private solution in place. Then the cabinet will receive the fibre very quickly, because it changes the dynamic from "not commercially viable" (number of homes) to "commercially viable" (loss of market share). So people might then have a choice of two options.

While ADSL2+ would see you with 9Mbps perhaps, just a bit below the most basic cable package, and might get us say 2.5Mbps, but get the Hen and Chicken and West End Farm nothing better: I need to look at the village population as a whole, and neither ADSL2+ not FTTC would be a solution for the whole village (the latter would only work with more cabinets, so it's quite an expensive way of getting barely current generation services). So if the village is to spend some of its own money, it has to be channeled towards a compehensive solution to benefit all.

The other aspect people are interested in is TV services - actually, and perhaps surprisingly, I've heard this repeatedly now. The front page of this site has a news article about IPTV and On Demand services, but for those with a HDTV we need to be looking to the future and the sorts of speeds required to stream that content.

I didn't manage to get both the website and the piece for the magazine to Nigel in time for this issue, but it will all be in the next one - which will be quite a "bumper issue" by all accounts as it also has some other bits and pieces to go in relating to the future for the village (what the steering group is working on) and will inivite people to attend "house parties" to discuss all the issues and desires for the direction of the village (broadband is just one of a number of things).
 
I understand. What I think we should do is to start looking at some private firms who might be able to help us. I'll do some research and I'll post back here if I get anything.
 
chaps - I'm not very frequent on this forum, but if I can help our near-neigbours then please let me know. i run a small wireless network in Basingstoke that takes backhaul from FTTC and redistrubutes it to people who are not on FTTC cabs. Please feel free to look at www.hiwifi.co.uk and give me a ring if something like this could work in Alton, Bentley etc.

RGds
Tim Robinson
 
Not read the entire thread, but...

Exchange name: Bentley
Exchange code: THBT
Location: Hampshire South East

Tiny exchange with only 1000 odd residential lines served. Not to sound rude but you are not going to be a priority for BT or any LLU or similar provider.

From line lengths given in your initial post you should get more than 2Mb though (more like 4Mb+ by my calculations), if you dont its going to be down to either poor internal cabling or poor cable from pole (or under road pavement if its underground) to exchange. So ISPs have probably been telling you the truth.

Looking at the map it appears to be a pretty rural area, but i have seen worse and know of people that are a lot further from the exchange than you appear to be.

Not to sound rude but i think you are just going to have to wait until 2015-2020 for any serious upgrade, and then you will have to pray you fall in to the 90% (or whatever meaningless figure BT are currently quoting) of the country that will be upgraded.

Campaigns in situations like the one you are in rarely succeed and if they do take considerable time, the cost involved for anyone to seriously improve an area like what you are in is basically not economically viable.

I wish you all the best, but ultimately (and its a shame) you are just one of the many have nots in this country with substandard broadband.
 
I disagree. TalkTalk are upgrading exchanges around here and many of them have 2000 or less lines. I think that TalkTalk will come to our exchange next year.

Here's an example: Odiham, which is literally down the road, has 2000 lines and is getting upgraded at the end of this year. Next will be lines with 1000 or less. TalkTalk are trying to get to everybody. I reckon we'll have broadband from TalkTalk by mid 2012.
 
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Its not only down to sub numbers but also area. The only "upgrades" talk talk can do to an exchange are shoving ADSL2+ LLU equipment in it, and in the OPs case stuck at 2Mb an upgrade from ADSL to ADSL2/+ wont give a massive benefit, maybe another 1 or 2Mb if lucky, in their case i suspect no real difference as it sounds like the cable between them and the exchange is poor quality as his/her speed is poor for the distance they are from the exchange.
 
Sorry about the lack of the meeting stuff in the magazine, I've been a bit snowed under. But I have just finished programming the party planner database, which the steering group will be using to make certain that absolutely every single Froyle resident gets invited to one of these consultation sessions. This is also linked in with the Village Design Plan - how would you like to see Froyle develop?

Broadband (and poor performance thereof) is one of the issues identified by residents (not just me!). There is some funding available to the parish (possibly, some quite significant funding) which could be used to bring a network here.

In response to the above - from my investigations:

- The Bentley exchange is about 2km from the edge of the village, lines pass underneath the only road that goes to Froyle, and exit at:
- The one cabinet is right on that edge of the village (near Hussey's Lane)
- The speeds in the area swing wildly and nobody gets more than 6Mbps (6.7Mbps would be the top possible speed given the exchange has only up to 8Meg services, which actually only run at a maximum of 6.7Mbps anyway, about level with what 3G can manage - see signature for my own solution!)
- Line lengths from the exchange vary from perhaps 2km to about 7km
- Line lengths from the cabinet vary from perhaps 6m (for that lovely house on the other side of the road to the cabinet) to about 5km (bit more for one or two outlying properties)

The variability in speeds at the moment could be down to several factors. It may be that some houses have such an ancient installation that they still have star-wiring configurations and GPO boxes like this house, which can get 1.7Mbps and is about 400m from someone else who can get 6Mbps. The 6Mbps is good for the line length, the 1.7Mbps dreadful.

Could also be that some/many lines are aliminium not copper hence the wide variations.

But even if that could all be sorted: what we're looking for here is next-generation. Especially if the village is going to spend its own money here. 6Mbps down 1.5Mbps up (which we can get via 3G much of the time though not all) is not next generation and I struggle working with these speeds here. Sadly since the cell is contended, everyone getting 3G dongles isn't going to solve the problem. Actually, please don't, it will remove my only broadband option if too many people go for it!

What could we have?

Cable - I'd have thought it very unlikely, though we do intend to approach VM (this is the most requested option, because people want access to TV services also); not a wholesale option (choice of 1 ISP)

Fibre to the Premises - high cost (though we might be able to chip in a fair amount), still under-developed/in its infancy, no nicely packaged TV platform exists for that yet nor a phone solution that would mean people could take a phone service too if they wanted; there is still no real fibre player yet for this to be Wholesaled though, so potentially a choice of 1 ISP - though if the Fujitsu-VM collaboration ever got off the ground that would be a good option. Trouble is it doesn't exist yet. (More on this later, some of this is quite detailed)

Wi-Fi - the most economical, obvious, least intrusive, affordable solution, not future proof, though. Two possible sites for the cell confirmed, one repeater likely to be needed because of the hilly nature of Upper Froyle and line of sight issues. Not in its infancy, there are providers, but not many. Possible aesthetic issues regarding the siting of the cell/mast.

4G/LTE - the next generation of 3G, not coming online for a couple of years. Potentially quite decent speeds, but again heavily contended (like 3G) and probably not a comprehensive option for the whole area, which assumes it will be upgraded and it may well not be. Not futureproof.

Options which won't work are:

ADSL

Anything based on ADSL - not futureproof; an ADSL2+ LLU service at the exchange would, I'd estimate, make very little difference to most of the village and trying to run an ADSL2+ signal over some of these lines might well result in worse service, if the ADSL2+ mode will stick at all (it places even more demands on the lines) - this may or may not be why the exchange was scheduled for 21CN upgrade in 2009 but the date was just quietly dropped.

FTTC

Fibre to the Cabinet - the lines are just too long and some too poor for this to provide any kind of comprehensive service; not futureproof - e.g. the houses in Hussey's Lane might see maybe 30Mbps but poor West End Farm, the Treloars site and a lot of Upper Froyle probably wouldn't be able to get much if anything at all given distance from cabinet. Good for free if BT were going to do it, but to be fair, they've "completed" Alton while leaving huge chunks without any service, so I don't see them bothering with that cabinet.

Though, if we got a private solution, I'd fully expect to see that one cabinet with fibre PDQ and people could then choose.

In other words, what we have here - an ancient phone network - doesn't really give us anything we can build on, about the only value of the thing is the ducting, and to be fair, this wouldn't be a hugely difficult area to run FTTP ducting to nearly all the homes since they almost all "sit" at the sides of two roads.

I see the argument "you can get between 2Mbps and 6Mbps which ain't bad for a non cabled area" but frankly, in the year 2011, 6Mbps is just pants even if everyone could get it. That the country's average is only 4 to 6Mbps is absolutely pitiable.

The main thing is that, as already pointed out, this is highly unlikely to progress without regulation (PIA access - detail - again more later, but this involves other companies using the ducting to lay their fibre rather than digging new ones, potentially bringing the cost down) or village funding.

Thing is, of the money that we might be able to push towards the project: how many feel the same? How many would sign up to an alternative service, and at what price? (That's the survey which is part of the planning process - all the speeds experienced by residents will be dog slow IMO at the moment even with a full ADSL sync - but that's my opinion; there are other calls for money to be spent in other areas)

The other aspect touched on is the numbers. There are only 240 houses in Froyle, but a WiFi solution could potentially encompass Bentley and Binsted for instance. I have made four attempts now to contact someone, anyone, from the Bentley and Binsted steering groups. If anyone is reading, please respond to your voicemails and emails.

@ Tim Robinson - thanks for your post, I will indeed check it out. Have already investigated this logistically in some detail and even priced it up based on a 1Gbps link to start with and it works well with 30% take-up. The survey we're doing will aim to see what take-up we might see at various price points. Many thanks for your input.

As I mentioned, we potentially have some cash. So if anyone else is interested, don't hesitate..

I'm off to finish coding the party invitation thing and fleshing out the community planning website content. This will all really be in the next magazine issue, promise ;)
 
- The Bentley exchange is about 2km from the edge of the village, lines pass underneath the only road that goes to Froyle, and exit at:
- The one cabinet is right on that edge of the village (near Hussey's Lane)
- The speeds in the area swing wildly and nobody gets more than 6Mbps (6.7Mbps would be the top possible speed given the exchange has only up to 8Meg services, which actually only run at a maximum of 6.7Mbps anyway, about level with what 3G can manage - see signature for my own solution!)
- Line lengths from the exchange vary from perhaps 2km to about 7km
- Line lengths from the cabinet vary from perhaps 6m (for that lovely house on the other side of the road to the cabinet) to about 5km (bit more for one or two outlying properties)

Nearly all of that applies to basically any location and exchange in the country. If your area is capable of 7Mb to some households its actually one of the better rural situations. There are people in this country living places which can not even achieve the 2Mb you are getting (you should be getting more than that if your distance figures are correct).

Speed will vary the further away from an exchange people are, that is also no different to the rest of the country.

To be honest your exchange and area does not sound that bad. If speeds are ranging from 2Mb to as near as 7Mb that actually puts the area in line with regards to the average ADSL speed the country as a whole gets which is around 5Mb.

ADSL2+ upgrades would make a difference to those lucky enough to be getting near the 7Mb mark, they would get near to double the speed (12-15Mb at a guess). Those such as yourself with 2Mb it wouldnt make much difference (though again i say if your physical cable distance is correct you should be getting more like 4+Mb rather than 2Mb and if you were getting that 4Mb on ADSL then on ADSL2+ you might be lucky enough to get 6-8Mb then).

My advice to you is ask around the local area if everyone really is that bothered and you put pressure on the local authority they may help fund the area, to be honest though it sounds a long shot and compared to some places in the UK the situation isnt that bad.
 
Nearly all of that applies to basically any location and exchange in the country. If your area is capable of 7Mb to some households its actually one of the better rural situations. There are people in this country living places which can not even achieve the 2Mb you are getting (you should be getting more than that if your distance figures are correct).

Speed will vary the further away from an exchange people are, that is also no different to the rest of the country.

To be honest your exchange and area does not sound that bad. If speeds are ranging from 2Mb to as near as 7Mb that actually puts the area in line with regards to the average ADSL speed the country as a whole gets which is around 5Mb.

ADSL2+ upgrades would make a difference to those lucky enough to be getting near the 7Mb mark, they would get near to double the speed (12-15Mb at a guess). Those such as yourself with 2Mb it wouldnt make much difference (though again i say if your physical cable distance is correct you should be getting more like 4+Mb rather than 2Mb and if you were getting that 4Mb on ADSL then on ADSL2+ you might be lucky enough to get 6-8Mb then).

My advice to you is ask around the local area if everyone really is that bothered and you put pressure on the local authority they may help fund the area, to be honest though it sounds a long shot and compared to some places in the UK the situation isnt that bad.

I take a completely different slant (some might have noticed). Don't misunderstand me, I fully agree: the issues here are identical to the issues in urban areas. That's why this "rural divide" thing is a complete misnomer and a diversion.

Where we are now, is only the second home I've lived in or worked from that has a line capable of supporting ADSL. So it's doing better than all the urban areas I've lived in bar one. Granted my experience is perhaps worse than many.

Any fair sized town is going to have not-spots with ADSL. It's great that we have widespread internet connectivity thanks to the ADSL stop-gap; it's better than 56kbps. Now it's time to stop faffing around, and build a broadband network.

My minimum threshold for something to be called "broadband" is 5Mbps down 1Mbps up, which is about the country average. I can get broadband here by, as we did, getting rid of the phone line and having 3G instead. But it's so, so slow.... 1.2GB Visual Studio download @ 6Mbps.... yawn... hope nobody calls the VOIP line while it's going especially if partner is watching iPlayer at the same time.

FTTC will raise the average speeds, but it is still only a stop gap and will do little or nothing for some; this area is such an example as FTTC needs the cabinet to be very near the property, and running fibre to the cabinet with some appalling quality connectivity to the house over 5km of GPO pre-WW2(?) phone line is like buying an expensive stereo system and listening to it through some Alba headphones you got in Asda for two quid. Urbans often have the advantage of cabinets in closer proximity to properties which means FTTC can be a good short to medium term solution. This would work well for most of the neighbouring village, Bentley, which is more tightly clustered and has a big "housing estate".

When I raised these issues at a meeting, and explained why no solution over phone lines is going to be futureproof, and barely current generation (I regard cable's capabilities as current generation, ADSL is just more modern dial-up internet), and also raised the prospect of diversions while roads are dug up, one resident simply said "Well, why don't we just do it properly if we're going to do it". I quite agree. Whether the village is happy to spend that amount of money on that particular project is open to debate, though. It is an affluent area with a fair few home workers and higher than average number of self-employed people.

What's not in question is that nothing will change on a commercially driven basis. The exchange isn't getting 21CN upgrades, nor is that cabinet scheduled for fibre. And even I'm not sure there's much mileage in doing so given the line lengths and qualities. We're maybe 1.2km of wire from it, so given our line quality we might see 10 to 20 meg perhaps, but we're very near that cabinet unlike many; the business area of the village is at the opposite end to the cabinet.

So whatever is put in, is likely to be here for a long time. "If you're going to do it, do it properly". Quite. Especially if we're paying :)

I can solve this very easily by "just moving home" to a cabled area (for the second time in my life). Or, to one of the small but growing number of villages with true fibre-optic or decent WiFi networks. It *can* be done, and is being done.

However it's a nice place to live, and while I'm here, this gives me a pet project to work on that might actually be able to deliver something which can endure. Of course, it may be that there isn't sufficient appetite for a solution, in which case I can't see how Froyle will ever progress or get anything better, which would be disappointing, and those phone lines aren't getting any newer.

I think the entire country needs an identical campaign, and it's time people stopped thinking/wishing/hoping that "BT will do it". In essence, our area might well be "average". It's just that the average is utterly dire. All IMO of course :)
 
I noticed a news item about churches getting the go ahead to install wifi networks recently, have you asked the local vicars about sitting repeaters on the churches?? I believe there was even central funding available.
 
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LOL - have you been here?

That area is precisely where the repeater would need to go. :)

I haven't asked, no (I don't go to church unless I want to see the Little Owls in the trees.. very sweet) but the funding thing is certainly worth me looking into, thanks!
 
Never been, but you need somewhere as high as possible, and that usually means a church tower in a rural area.

if i can remember where I saw the story I will post a link, it was in the last two weeks, but I browse a LOT of websites. It might be worth checking the news archives here, at BBC News, and at The Register
 
The wireless and church thing, i think may have been this......

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/story/20...hereford-granted-first-broadband-licence.html

Company only operates in the Midlands(ish) area for now
http://www.allpaybroadband.com/availability

@DTMark
From your latest post im sorry to say but your expectations are way too high this country is never going to be 100% coverage of true FTTP/FTTH there are too many rural communities. The cost to do every single individual including those that live on some Moor somewhere or halfway up a mountain would be astronomical.

FTTC much as i think it is a waste of money for most (especially large towns/cities) certainly is not a stop gap measure, for some people that is their best hope of suddenly getting decent speed out of decades old final mile of copper.

Scrapping the copper network entirely i personally do not think will ever happen or is many many many many many years off happening.

The amount of people that will have FTTH/FTTP services available by 2020 equates to something tiny like 2-5%........ Copper lines are going nowhere for atleast 20 years IMO.

Its utter maddness for you to expect a company to spend money providing you with the best of the best when your area is so small they would never make the money back. You may not like it but if BT, Virgin or any other company just started rolling out full on FTTH/FTTP to tiny little communities rather than concentrating on where money is to be made first and then spending the profit on small areas, they would sooner or later go bankrupt and then we wouldnt have any company around to provide any of us with any service.
 
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Its utter maddness for you to expect a company to spend money providing you with the best of the best when your area is so small they would never make the money back. You may not like it but if BT, Virgin or any other company just started rolling out full on FTTH/FTTP to tiny little communities rather than concentrating on where money is to be made first and then spending the profit on small areas, they would sooner or later go bankrupt and then we wouldnt have any company around to provide any of us with any service.

I realise my posts were long, but I did cover those points:

What's not in question is that nothing will change on a commercially driven basis. The exchange isn't getting 21CN upgrades, nor is that cabinet scheduled for fibre. And even I'm not sure there's much mileage in doing so given the line lengths and qualities. We're maybe 1.2km of wire from it, so given our line quality we might see 10 to 20 meg perhaps, but we're very near that cabinet unlike many; the business area of the village is at the opposite end to the cabinet.

So whatever is put in, is likely to be here for a long time. "If you're going to do it, do it properly". Quite. Especially if we're paying
 
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Is anything going to happen when Treloars goes? They must have pretty good internet there. Maybe the village could buy the infrastructure?
 
I'm curious as to what connectivity Treloars has. Or, had. It's a large building and ADSL at that location, on a perfect .5 copper line (may not be) and making a sensible assumption about the route the line takes would perhaps see them with between maybe 256kbps and 3Mbps to share out among all the students (I suspect many have MBB dongles). I did wonder if that's what that big satellite dish they have is for. But, perhaps they do have a leased line. I shall try to find out.

One interesting aspect - developers want to build residential there (haven't kept up with this fully) and the developer might be interested in helping out so that the development can get broadband, as new residents of expensive homes are going to be a bit miffed at barely being able to stream YouTube videos.

Edit to add - the wholesale checker is more optimistic

For Postcode GU34 4JX

Your exchange is ADSL enabled, and our initial check on your postcode indicates that your line should be able to have an ADSL broadband service that provides a fixed line speed up to 1Mbps. However due to the length of your line the 1Mbps service may require an engineer visit who will, where possible, supply the broadband service.

Our check also indicates that your line currently supports an estimated ADSL Max broadband line speed of 2Mbps; typically the line speed would range between 1.5Mbps and 4.5Mbps.
 
Now it gets interesting.

The Froyle Treloars site doesn't have a connection to the Bentley exchange.

I paraphrase the response only because I don't have "permission" to paste it in, but: they have a point to point fibre link to the other site in Holybourne, about 6km away, which will serve no useful purpose once the school shuts down.

Or so it was believed...
 
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