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truth4free

ULTIMATE Member
That is their REAL FTTP product and NOT the upcoming "ON DEMAND" product (ONE is GPON one is GEA). As is clear at the 2.37 minute mark when that particular section of the video begins. The 2 products use different methods to provide the product.

The upcoming FTTP On demand product is for those in current FTTC areas. BT are not supplying their (for want of a better description) real FTTP product and FTTC/FTTP on demand in the same areas. Also as briefly mentioned in your video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_gUBw8gh90&feature=player_detailpage#t=415s

You either live in an area that will have REAL FTTP or you live in an area where you will have the FTTC/FTTP On demand product. The on demand product is for those in areas currently supplied by FTTC cabinets. You can not have it if you are in an area with no FTTC.

When you take the FTTP On demand product you pay an install charge (yet to be determined) to have fibre cable ran from your home back to your current local FTTC cabinet (or an aggregation node first but lets not be too technical).

Fibre from that is basically then ran back to the the exchange. That is how the ON DEMAND product will be supplied, that is also why not anyone can have it but only current FTTC areas. It is only available in FTTC areas, if it did not depend on the cabinet and the tech and cable already that goes to them anyone could have the ON DEMAND product.

BTs REAL FTTP (again for want of a better or less confusing description) is only available to a tiny percent of the country (something like 3% i think was the last mentioned figure) and uses a Fibre cable direct from the exchange to your home with no need for the cabinet and other bits in between.

Didn't someone already explain they are not the same product to you, and use different equipment to provide the end result?
 
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truth4free

ULTIMATE Member
All will become clear in the time but it doesn't make sense to me to have active splitters and aggregation points.

Splitters and aggregation nodes do different jobs. There is only one COMPLETE (tagged "PRO"active) diagram i have seen which IS CLEARLY FOR THE ON DEMAND PRODUCT and that indeed has both primary and secondary splitters in addition to a aggregation node. It also clearly shows it is a GPON based product. The only other diagram around that details the On Demand product is a "re"active one which basically only shows the additional bits that will be used for the On demand product.

It also makes even less sense that the fibre would reach into each cabinet (I didn't really pay much attention to the claims in the other news item comments - sorry if I've invented a claim) considering the limited fibre tubes into each cabinet and that the ducts are filled with epoxy resin stuff once the link cables and fibre tube are installed preventing further capacity being added easily.

Tom - www.mouselike.org

It is not just the fibre cabling which runs to a FTTC area which will be utilised for the on demand product, but other current infrastructure (likely to be both items inside and outside of the cabinet). This has to logically be the case.

If it wasn't there is no reason, for examples sake that if you had 2 roads RIGHT next to each other (one with FTTC, one without) that the one without couldn't have the On demand product installed.

If all what is important is the fibre cabling before the cabinet and the cabinet itself and other infrastructure in the chain (IE splitters, nodes etc) and anything in the cabinet was not used, then why couldn't the second road just have fibre ran from the home to a fibre link before that cabinet in the other road?

Even more so when its likely to cost the consumer hundreds to be installed.

Current FTTC uses a DSLAM in the cabinets. The On demand solution will be GPON based solution, certain GPON setups also make use of a DSLAM, and that is likely one of the many reasons why you will need to be in a existing FTTC area before you can have the On Demand product.

Even more likely the case when you consider the REAL (for want of a better description) FTTP from BT which is only available to a very small percentage of the country is GEA based and does not use a DSLAM.

They are thus 2 very different products. Two products which (IN THEORY) may deliver very similar speeds, but the way that speed is supplied is 2 different ways.
 

truth4free

ULTIMATE Member
None in particular but something like this, if posted to a news item comment thread, normally ends up with more than just you and I "conversing".
Vaguely interesting that it hasn't happened here.

Tom - www.mouselike.org
Personally i think its about time the news items comments here people should have to register for also.
 

Ignitionnet

Regular Member
A while ago in some news comments there was some argument if an Aggregation node was powered or active, or needed an FTTC cabinet to function.

I don't remember the outcome of the argument but I came across this which may help someone "win" :D ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_gUBw8gh90&feature=player_detailpage#t=184s

Looks pretty passive to me. I am sure there is some "wiggle room" in the argument anyway as the video is very FTTP centric and not FTTC.

Tom - www.mouselike.org

Hello!

On the FTTP product there are no active components at all apart from the OLT in the exchange and the ONT at the customer premises.

Both FTTP and FTTPoD products use Generic Ethernet Access, the entire point of GEA is that it is access agnostic. Neither uses an MSAN, the fibre spine leading to the exchange is tapped to feed FTTPoD customers.
 

truth4free

ULTIMATE Member
None in particular but something like this, if posted to a news item comment thread, normally ends up with more than just you and I "conversing".
Vaguely interesting that it hasn't happened here.

Tom - www.mouselike.org

LMAO it appears to have decided to sign up (thats at least its second account on here now LOL). So All BT fibre is the same according to it. Although obviously it has different pricing structures for the varying products and he along with BT still doesn't know the difference between an agg. node and splitter.

No idea what "spine" he is on about (I guess he means aggregation node again and just still doesn't understand). A year on he can not explain why FTTPoD will only be available to areas that have FTTC if all that is required is fibre running to a "spine". Its dependant on tech FTTC already uses, BTs real FTTP is not.

This link (PAGE 7) clearly shows there is point to point fibre product (the real deal that goes at speeds upto 10Gbps) along with a passive product (which goes at upto 1 Gbps) and (page 12.13 and 14) clearly shows the various products...
http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/telecoms/policy/whitley.pdf

I guess it got bored spamming the forum anonymously a few hours ago and seeing it swiftly removed and has decided to make another account to look dumb again.
 
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Ignitionnet

Regular Member
Sorry, no idea who you think I am but it's not that hard to find me given I'm all over broabdand forums.

Fibre spine is BT-speak for the fibre network they use to feed cabinets, etc.

GEA is, as I said, access agnostic. However the customer connects to the Openreach network the interface is the same so from the operator's point of view whether a 10Gb point to point leased line, a consumer grade FTTP line or FTTC it doesn't matter they all come to the operator through the same cablelink product and layer 2 switch if Openreach choose to provide them.

I said that FTTP and FTTPoD were the same, neither uses a DSLAM, both are GEA products, I didn't say anything about the leased line products which are, naturally, point to point.

A cabinet isn't required for FTTPoD, they use fibre at an aggregation node on the path to the cabinet to build FTTPoD - see http://www.btplc.com/Sharesandperfo...ts/Newsletter/Issue27/60secondguide/index.htm for build info and http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/hom...sondemand/downloads/FTTPonDemandFactSheet.pdf for other details.

The cabinet just makes it economically viable to run the fibre out there to begin with. Without the cabinet being there there's no business case for performing the civils work to clear duct paths just to put fibre to an inspection cover on the off-chance someone takes it up. In an FTTC install the most expensive part tends to be getting fibre to the thing. The cabinets themselves are pretty cheap in the grand scheme.

The only difference between the FTTP product available to a small area right now and FTTPoD is the network build at the start. Once that's done both are handled exactly the same. It's just about getting consumers to pay up-front towards Openreach's network. Clever move actually.

Either way zero technology is shared between them. Per that BT Group 60-second briefing when FTTPoD is ordered they take a fibre from an aggregation node, plug it into a PON OLT in the exchange, and then build out the PON splitter closer to the customer. When BT blow fibre to cabinets they blow tons of it so that they can re-use it for FTTP at a later date. FTTPoD is someone paying Openreach a shedload of cash to get it earlier.

Hope that helps.

EDIT: Just FYI the part of that document you linked me to was headed 'choices'. There are no exchange-based DSL GEA products available, there is no point to point fibre product available over GEA right now. The GEA-FTTP price list is here, the GEA-FTTC price list is here, the 10Gb products are in the fibre-only ethernet section here.

The document you linked is a consultation document from 2007, well before the portfolio of products had been finalised, hence the header 'NGA Technology Choices' and the presence, along with 10Gb PtP fibre, of exchange-based DSL.
 
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Ignitionnet

Regular Member
Sorry to see you can't respond but I'll clarify and answer a couple of other points I saw arise.

If it helps for this silly 'PON' argument in the future please see http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/hom.../fttp/downloads/NewSitesnewhomeflyerFINAL.pdf and the diagrams and pretty light marked 'PON' on the Openreach ONT.

http://www1.btwebworld.com/sinet/506v1p0.pdf is a supplier information note on GEA-FTTP, note the following:

1. Service Outline
1.1 General
Openreach will provide the Generic Ethernet Access/Fibre to the Premises (GEAFTTP) product variant, part of Openreach‟s Next Generation Access (NGA) portfolio, over a shared passive fibre optic infrastructure..

That SIN was issued in October 2010, and superceded the earlier April 2008 document http://www1.btwebworld.com/sinet/477v1p0.pdf which, again, notes:

2. Service Outline
2.1 General
Openreach will provide the GEA product, a Next Generation Access (NGA) product, over a shared passive fibre optic infrastructure.

Unsure where this idea that GEA-FTTP is point to point fibre came from; I guess misunderstanding of the statement that it's fibre all the way back to the exchange. It is, but not a single dedicated strand of it.

PON is used as it's slightly cheaper to deploy, a single fibre from the exchange can serve 32, 64 or even 128 premises via splitters so less fibres and less duct space, and most of all because it's impossible to physically unbundle PON. Had they deployed a point to point fibre solution operators would have clamoured for an unbundled dark fibre solution in the same manner they can unbundle the point to point copper loops.

Another point I noticed was this:

When you take the FTTP On demand product you pay an install charge (yet to be determined) to have fibre cable ran from your home back to your current local FTTC cabinet (or an aggregation node first but lets not be too technical).

Aggregation nodes don't sit on the d-side. They are nothing more than underground fibre trays where a number of fibres are, well, aggregated. It's a root and branch architecture and these aggregation nodes collect together fibres from multiple branches before they make their way to the root / spine. Having these in between FTTC cabinets and the homes served by those cabinets would make FTTC pretty pointless as you've already pushed fibre closer to the home than the cabinet.

Aggregation nodes are quite different from splitters; aggregation nodes simply collect a number of fibres together from different, smaller fibre feeds so that they can then be fed, together, back to another aggregation node or to the exchange. Just as you use cable tidies to collect cables together the aggregation nodes are similar, on steroids. Most fibre runs from exchange to cabinet will traverse multiple aggregation nodes as additional fibre branches are aggregated together.

Apologies for the case of mistaken identity. Assumption is the mother of, and all that.
 
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