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FSmail is truncating my Emails !!!

FSmail is chopping the end off some of my incoming Emails, as acknowledged by Freeserve Technical Support on 12/4: "We have followed exactly what you are doing (thank you for the
instructions) and can confirm that the error is with FSmail itself."

Details:

The problem was first observed on a mail received from the Yahoo Groups Server
Received: from n7.grp.scd.#### (n7.grp.scd.#### [66.218.66.91])
Sat, 3 Apr 2004 07:18:50 +0200 (CEST)

The problem occurs only (to date) on text which has been generated by weblist servers. I have problems with mail from Yahoo Groups, AOL ListServ, with an AOL log forwarded by an NTLWorld user as a crosscheck, and with forwarding a webpage of text which is also a weblist log. Of the 20 digests received in the last 36 hours, 30% were shortened. The maximum loss has been 95% of the file.

The problem appears completely repeatable. If the same file is sent it is always truncated at the same length. It is truncated whether the text is embedded in the main message text, or sent as an attachment.

The problem is at least partly independent of the source - truncation of files has occured with files that have been sent by an NTLworld user, my own Freeserve account, Freeserve tech support, AOL Listserv, and Yahoo Groups. (Its possible that it doesnt apply to all though - one test sending the file to hotmail and back appeared to show that hotmail sending the file to me did not trigger the problem).

The problem is not occuring at download to my local machine because; it occurs on different receiving machines, and the file size can already be seen to be truncated by checking my inbox on the webmail server before download.

I know already of 2 other users with the identical problem.

My problem can be demonstrated by following these instructions:
Save the following list archive from the web: http://bubl.####/mail/bild/0205.txt and send it as
an attachment the Freeserve account being tested, the sent attachment size is 232kB, and the received attachment size is 13.4kB. I have repeated similar tests many times and the cutoff is in *exactly* the same place in the text.

The only other clues I have is that there is a section in that file (about 1/4 way down) which starts "Abstract" and has some overscore characters in. If the file is chopped off shortly after this and sent it truncates. If I remove all 5 overscore characters in that section, the whole of the shortened version of the file sends correctly. However thats not the only problem with the file, it only works if you use the first third of the file, there are other problems later in the file that also stop it sending and they are not so obvious as the overscore characters. If I take the para with the offending characters and insert it another Email which doesnt have problems, it doesnt appear to create the problem, so there is some subtle problem relating to both the characters, and the context in the particular file.

Freeserve time to fix problem:
17 Emails to get their attention so far...
3 users confirmed problem...
18 days since problem began...
11 days since problem reported.....
9 days since problem confirmed by Freeserve Tech Support....... and counting.

Its interesting that there isnt a big fuss on the web about this - presumably its only affect list digest, they can always switch to individual mails, and maybe limited to some specific subset of Freeserve users. The timing is very close to the arrival of the spamfilters, but doesnt coincide with the appearance of the spam check messages at the end of the headers, which occured on 6th April. I believe they have added virus checking running now - does anyone know when that was activated, or whether it was updated on the 3rd?

I use OE5 / connect on Anytime, but receive mail through a no-ties address. Have tried various combinations of Anytime and No-Ties send account, receive account, and connection and all combinations behave the same.

I have to give Freeserve good credit that they responded to all my early Emails within 48 hours, and eventually followed my instructions and acknowledged the problem. However since then the service has deteriorated, with up to 5 days delay, also 1 email which didnt understand they had accepted the fault, and told me it had to me my machine, and another in which an enlighted Freeserve tech support person told me (dont laugh too hard):
"As previously mentioned there is nothing that would cause truncation of your files on the Freeserve servers, but the fact that we have replicated the fault here, suggests otherwise" !!!??? and
"Why this would happen i do not know." !!!!!

How charming.... but hardly a professional response.

Phil
 
Update 22/04/04; latest Freeserve tech response on truncation problem, and my reply:

Freeserve tech support>>
>>The problem here is caused by Spam being sent from the yahoo mailserver
- a result of which we have blocked the transmission of mail from these
servers.
You will need to contact yahoo to insist they remove themselves from our
blacklist - something only they can do themselves<<

So let me see if understand this. You are saying that *during* the reception of my digest message, your system detects what it *thinks* is a flood of other messsages which are spam from the digest server, and temporarily blocks transmission of mail from the server concerned ??

So lets ask you a simple question - what relevance does this have to the repeatable fault I sent you, where transmission of a digest file entirely within the Freeserve system results in the truncation of the message??????????????????

Let me give you another example. Since I couldnt download the LISTSERV April log for one of my lists, I asked someone else to download it and send it to me, which they did on 10/4/04, and the file which came as a normal Email from an NTL world account, was truncated. Nine days later on 19/4/04, to check the problem I asked the person to
resend the same message, which they did, and in truncated in EXACTLY the same spot !!!!! Clearly neither of those file truncations has anything to do with blocking of servers due to spam, or else they would occur randomly and they dont, as I have repeatedly informed you, they are repeatable.

I also note that the NTL mail text is truncated with a spurious "=" character, exactly as the Yahoo digests are. That is a very unlikely coincidence which suggests to me that whatever is the cause of the file truncation (which I have just demonstrated is not spam blocking of a server) is also the cause of the Yahoo digest truncation, which therefore also is probably not due to spam blocking of a server. Its far more probable that they are the result of the same file fault which you have not addressed. Also AOL LISTSERV digests are truncated as well as Yahoo, a fact that you have not addressed. Your explanation is inadequate, and to be honest patronising, because if whoever looked at the information given to you had thought about it, it would have been immediately obvious that the conclusion did not address repeatable file truncation. In any event its no kind of an answer because I'm not
responsible for any spam on Yahoo. Perhaps you can now understand why I am getting increasingly frustrated that the very detailled information which I have supplied you, at great effort to myself, is not being taken seriously.
One could be mistaken for thinking that either the responses I am being given are intended to fob me off with an excuse, or that the person doing the testing of my fault is incompetent.

Please take this whole issue more seriously, as I am now seriously considering moving to another ISP immediately.
Additionally I have written to Freeserves complaints department because my mails have been treated so lightly. I resent that my request for mail access to a manager within Freeserve has not been answered. I have posted information about this fault on 3 forums and will continue to advertise my disatisfaction with the response until the problem is adequately addressed. I do not think I am being unreasonable - I appreciate that the problem may in fact be complex and take time to resolve, and would be perfectly willing to accept that if I was kept adequately
informed but the answers to my points so far have repeatedly failed to address the fault reports given, and I find that offensive. When I am given a sensible assessment of the problem and report on the actions being taken to resolve it, I will adjust the public information that I have posted on the web to that effect.

Awaiting a more helpful response.

(trying to be...) your patiently

Phil
 
All I can say is thats not the way to speak to or write to someone, and isnt going to help you one bit.

Yes, you might be annoyed, but to write it in the tone you have just seems very harsh, and is essentially the same as shouting at someone on the phone and calling them stupid.

Ie, it doesnt get you anywhere and actually makes the recipient less likely to help you, as If I'm being honest you do come across in that email as highly stuck up - thats not meant to offend, but just how the email comes across.
 
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>All I can say is thats not the way to speak to or write to someone, and isnt going to help you one bit.

Yes, you might be annoyed, but to write it in the tone you have just seems very harsh, and is essentially the same as shouting at someone on the phone and calling them stupid.<

Yes it is certainly coming close to calling them stupid, but... I'll let you judge whether it is harsh.... let me review the history a little.
On 12/4 after 7 mails in which I patiently (and without the deliberate rudeness you correctly ascribe to me) explained that there really was a problem I received this:
"Thank you for your email.
We have followed exactly what you are doing (thank you for the
instructions) and can confirm that the error is with FSmail itself.
Please accept our apologies for the inconvenience this is causing."

I was very satisfied with this and waited patiently for 5 days while they tested my mailbox, and asked for my assistance with their various tests, and on 17/4 I received this:
"There is nothing on the Freeserve servers that will cause truncation of the mail before you recieve it. The most likely possibility is that is being truncated at source before it is sent, or there may be some third party software on your PC that may be doing this, such as
AntiVirus software. Can we suggest that if you do have any AntiVirus
software on your PC that you disable it and try receiving these mails
again."

Given that they have already confirmed 5 days earlier that FSmail is creating the problem, and that its *inside* their system, I did find it a little irritating to be told that suddenly the problem was on my PC. Their sending the test file I supplied them and demonstrating the fault in their server mailbox before I download it, eliminates the sending PC and my receiving one. Nevertheless I replied politely and asked them to address the fault as reported.

On 19/4 I received an Email saying:
"I am sorry to learn of the problems you are having with our FSMail
service. As previously mentioned there is nothing that would cause
truncation of your files on the Freeserve servers, but the fact that we have replicated the fault here, suggests otherwise. The only thing i can think is that or some treason FSmail is truncating the messages as it reaches your mailbox on the server. Why this would happen i do not know."

That was a courteous reply, although it didnt add much, and doesnt entirely make sense, but they did ask me to help with a couple of further file tests. One of which was identical to the tests they have done which confirm the problem anyway. So I ran the tests and sent a polite response.

On 20/4 I received a further Email:
"We are still investigating this problem.
Please accept our apologies as this is taking much longer than
anticipated.
This is because the file you referred to previously is the only file
which appears to be still causing a problem - we have vigorously tested the account and can only reproduce the error with this single document."

At this point I did begin to lose patience somewhat since of the 20 list digests I received on 19th-20th, 6 were truncated, and every Email I sent reminds them I also have a digest truncation problem. So I did send back a slightly stronger Email in which I politely suggested that I was not being taken very seriously. Not least because I have now reported that 2 other Freeserve users I know are reporting digest truncation. I received a holding reply including the words "believe me you are"

So then finally I get an Email which suggests that the problem is the fault of Yahoo spam - which does not fit the facts, and also that it is my responsibility to act on not theirs:
As they have confirmed several times, if they send the test file I located for them; Freeserve tech support -> FSmail -> my Freeserve inbox, it results in it being truncated - in exactly the same place every time. So the problem is not spam blocking of Yahoo server.

So yes, I was deliberately rude, its hard to see what else to do. I already asked for a managers mail address and the question was ignored. I mailed a complaint to customer service and it was returned with the statement that only written complaints are considered !!?? I have sent off a written complaint but heard nothing. I have asked for a manager to reply with their action plan and been ignored. What else can I do - threaten to move to another ISP, and warn them that I will publicise the information as to what is happenening? I'd already warned them of both of those, but they are idle threats really arent they?
My annoyance was fuelled by a number of things.

Firstly they told me I was being taken seriously. Their reassurance doesnt help if it isnt backed by actions, and the actions are that they are still not addressing the detailled fault reports I have sent in a total of 17 Emails, and failing to acknowledge them in many of their intermittent "explanations".

Secondly I spent a long time (part of 2 days) finding out how they could replicate this fault as a repeatable problem. Having done a lot of free work for them, I do expect them to take the accurate technical report I sent them seriously - how many other customers would offer them that level of support?

And finally after 19 days the last mail apparently puts me back in the; "We havent got a problem, you have!" box.

You say it wont help me one bit. Well unfortunately after trying 12 days of being polite, it seems that has got me nowhere, and reluctant though I am to kick up a fuss, because its not my usual style; very often it does get a reaction. Why shouldnt I say I'm annoyed - I am!

As for stuck up - surely thats a tricky judgement over Email - does that just mean I can speak articulately? I was trying to convey that while annoyed I am still being precise in what I say, maybe that does it.

Phil
 
PhilHicks said:
As for stuck up - surely thats a tricky judgement over Email - does that just mean I can speak articulately? I was trying to convey that while annoyed I am still being precise in what I say, maybe that does it.

Phil

But, if they have tested the account with various other file attachments etc which didnt get shortened - then that would suggest something other than FSMail/FS itself.

Have you tried getting the list sent to hotmail? (I dont recall seeing that done) and does it shorten the file or keep it the same?

It may still be something in the file or something at the Yahoo or list software they are using (not you).

Also bear in mind, that they (FS) might not have the full knowledge of the actual servers themselves if its a call centre so this is where you have to be patient in a lot of cases as they may go back and forth with another department for example.

So, again, no matter how long it takes, being rude/arrogant and/or patronising in an email, something you wouldnt do if it was face to face isnt going to help when the person taking that email may not be the same as the one before the same way if you call up might not be the same person twice as with modern call centres these days.

Remember, politeness is the key to getting an issue solved, if they take a dislike to the way you talk/write to you then your less likely to get your problem solved - complaining isnt always the best route.

Saying you'll go elsewhere is also like saying in a shop you'll go elsewhere and in most cases all the shopkeeper/assistant will do/say is walk away...
 
Robert Naylor said:
There was nothing wrong with what he wrote. It was a simple letter of complaint saying that if they didn't start looking into this problem properly he would move ISP. Please point out once when he did something that would have offended?

I presume you are then blind as even the original thread starter has admitted it was rude.
 
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I don't think it was particularly rude - terse perhaps, but not offensive, especially when you can be subjected to regulary swearing and threats with some people.

As for it not helping him - he wasn'r being helped in the first place, so that won't make much difference.

I am assuming he is on dial-up. If I was in his position, I would already have left for another ISP.
 
akbray said:
As for it not helping him - he wasn'r being helped in the first place, so that won't make much difference.

Well thats not true, they have mentioned the tests they have done, and saying they arent sure whats causing it is very honest.

So I disagree with him not being helped, though maybe it could have been better and/or more structured so it made more sense.
 
Originally posted by Robert Naylor
There was nothing wrong with what he wrote. It was a simple letter of complaint saying that if they didn't start looking into this problem properly he would move ISP. Please point out once when he did something that would have offended?

Originally posted by Norfett
I presume you are then blind as even the original thread starter has admitted it was rude.

Norfett

I will answer the question about style once more then leave it as it is diluting my intended topic. Its interesting that you arent following your own guidelines about politeness in the dialogue above. Especially since you have your accusation wrong, since Roberts comment was posted before I agreed that I was being "intentionally rude" for effect.

Let me clarify that because I didnt really elaborat on it. My intention was *not*, and Robert is absolutely right here, to *offend*. But I was "deliberately rude" in the limited sense that in the polite middle class society in which I was brought up (stuck up perhaps if that means middle class), to express annoyance or to express firmly that the performance of another is below standard is considered rude. So in that limited sense, I felt justified, for the reasons I explained, in making the complaint with the strength that I did - because of the history I outlined.

Originally posted by Norfett
Also bear in mind, that they (FS) might not have the full knowledge of the actual servers themselves if its a call centre so this is where you have to be patient in a lot of cases as they may go back and forth with another department for example.

I completely agree with that. I actually dont hold him at fault for any of this, but his managers are responsible. I do have sympathy for the person on the other end of that mail BUT
A) He can and should just pass it up, its effectively a formal complaint now.
B) I have repeatedly asked for contact with a manager and supervisor, and not been told its not available, just *not answered*.
C) If they put in a customer interface that is the only person you can talk to, then they represent the whole company to you.

So, again, no matter how long it takes, being rude/arrogant and/or patronising in an email, something you wouldnt do if it was face to face isnt going to help when the person taking that email may not be the same as the one before the same way if you call up might not be the same person twice as with modern call centres these days.

>Remember, politeness is the key to getting an issue solved, if they take a dislike to the way you talk/write to you then your less likely to get your problem solved - complaining isnt always the best route.<

I agree its not always the best route and I was polite for the first 15 mails or so - but you have to try another angle sometime if the answers coming back are not adequate. If you sat in the restaurant and complained about your soup 15 times, and they brought back inedible soup 15 times, what would you do next????

>Saying you'll go elsewhere is also like saying in a shop you'll go elsewhere and in most cases all the shopkeeper/assistant will do/say is walk away...<

That is why I called it an idle threat. On the other hand if you complain to the shopkeeper, and then go and tell the manager responsible for the shop that your complaint was ignored, you may well get the response you want.....
 
Originally posted by Norfett
So, again, no matter how long it takes, being rude/arrogant and/or patronising in an email, something you wouldnt do if it was face to face isnt going to help when the person taking that email may not be the same as the one before the same way if you call up might not be the same person twice as with modern call centres these days.

Sorry, left this without any >>>'s in the last post

Actually the tone I used would be the same if I was phoning. I dont think it would offend, it wasnt intended to. It would make clear that I think the attention being given is not appropriate for the fault reported, and the level of support I have given Freeserve. It should and is intended to, help the person sympathise with me that this is not getting adequate attention.

As for the person not being the same person, that is the company's problem not mine. If the company chooses to answer 20 Emails with 20 different people, that doesnt mean that I shouldnt taken them as a continuous single reply from "the company".

I'm not going to reply any further, I think I've probably explained myself sufficiently.
 
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>Quotes by Norfett<
>But, if they have tested the account with various other file attachments etc which didnt get shortened - then that would suggest something other than FSMail/FS itself.<

I think thats a mistake of logic. Let me try to illustrate; If I go out in the countryside and see white sheep all day it doesnt mean there are no black sheep in this country does it? If Freeserve test my account with their standard tests and those tests pass, it doesnt necessarily mean there isnt a problem - one that the tests dont detect. That is exactly what annoys me here. I demonstrate a fault and they run a test which says the system is okay and they conclude "Its not FSmail". So why dont they check the system by running Phil's test again to *which they agree proves* that it *is* FSmail? If in any of the engineering jobs I have done I had produced such a fault report for my customer, I would, frankly, have been sacked. All they have to do is every time they conclude they have the system clean, run my test. When it proves the system isnt clean they need to *do something about it* instead of doing what I mentally imagine to be shrugging, finding an easier problem to work on, and sending me a mail with one of the standard explanations about it being spam or something else that it clearly cant be if all the evidence is considered.

>Have you tried getting the list sent to hotmail? (I dont recall seeing that done) and does it shorten the file or keep it the same?<

What difference would that make, I'm not sending these files to or from hotmail? Though its an interesting hint, would you care to tell us more?

>It may still be something in the file or something at the Yahoo or list software they are using (not you).<

Yes it probably is "something in the file". But that doesnt excuse the fact that Freeserve cant transmit these particular files at the moment.

>Also bear in mind, that they (FS) might not have the full knowledge of the actual servers themselves if its a call centre so this is where you have to be patient in a lot of cases as they may go back and forth with another department for example.<

I do accept that, and I have been very careful not to respond firmly except to what appears to be a final Email saying, we have looked at your problem and its not our fault. In order to ensure that they have another look at the problem, I have to point out that they have not considered fully what I have said.

I do sympathise with the person/s who are responding to my Emails at Freeserve, I agree the company is putting them in a very difficult position. I hope they have appropriate mechanisms within the company for dealing with the pressure that this no doubt causes them.

Phil
 
Original post from akbray
I am assuming he is on dial-up. If I was in his position, I would already have left for another ISP.

Actually I'm on Anytime account. I could for sure move to another ISP but;
I have a lot of friends Email contact / lists pointed at that mail address,
and Freeserve have a lot of resources to provide a good service, and most of the time it has been good. (Apart from occasional dialup overload, delayed mails in March, bouncing AOL messages in December, etc, of course).

So I'ld prefer to get them to fix it and not have to move around. How likely is the next ISP to be any better? Strangely that makes me *more* inclined to have a noisy moan since I think that I deserve support for my loyalty, in a sense it entitles me to make a fuss. Which I think is fair enough, what does 3 years of Anytime account payments come to?

Phil
 
PhilHicks said:
I think thats a mistake of logic.

>Have you tried getting the list sent to hotmail? (I dont recall seeing that done) and does it shorten the file or keep it the same?<

What difference would that make, I'm not sending these files to or from hotmail? Though its an interesting hint, would you care to tell us more?

>It may still be something in the file or something at the Yahoo or list software they are using (not you).<

Yes it probably is "something in the file". But that doesnt excuse the fact that Freeserve cant transmit these particular files at the moment.

What I'm saying is, if you get that file sent to a hotmail address from your yahoo list, then see if the file is shortened - if its not you have a pretty good idea its related to FS.

However, if it also shortens the file, then you know its not freeserve.

simple test to really prove if it is the fs mail servers or something else...

Also, Logic doesnt apply to PC's or the Internet.
 
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norfett said:
What I'm saying is, if you get that file sent to a hotmail address from your yahoo list, then see if the file is shortened - if its not you have a pretty good idea its related to FS.

However, if it also shortens the file, then you know its not freeserve.

simple test to really prove if it is the fs mail servers or something else...

Also, Logic doesnt apply to PC's or the Internet.

If you read the original post (see the quote below), it seems that the problem can be re-created using an email client sending the same text as the server, this would strongly suggest an issue with freeserve's server software; While I wouldn't be surprised if a list server isn't standards compliant, It is highly unlikely that two completely different systems using different software would both send the file in an incorrect format.

Since he states a partial text http://bubl.ac.uk/mail/bild/0205.txt ? sends ok only with overscores removed this *might* suggest that it is only affecting messages using certain forms of encoding (eg Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable perhaps ????)

At the core of every computer beats a heart of pure Logic.

My problem can be demonstrated by following these instructions:
Save the following list archive from the web: http://bubl.####/mail/bild/0205.txt and send it as
an attachment the Freeserve account being tested, the sent attachment size is 232kB, and the received attachment size is 13.4kB. I have repeated similar tests many times and the cutoff is in *exactly* the same place in the text.
 
Last edited:
Phill sent me two emails same content, one from hotmail one from freeserve with the file.

Me using mozilla firefox as email client.

The emails are identical but for the tag line hotmail adds in...

So I cant see the issue, maybe its the FSMail itself thats the issue, and that if they come through to an email client as opposed to webmail then its ok.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

but both emails were the same, so the server software would seem not to be the issue.
 
Norfett wrote:
Phill sent me two emails same content, one from hotmail one from freeserve with the file.
The emails are identical but for the tag line hotmail adds in...

So I cant see the issue, maybe its the FSMail itself thats the issue, and that if they come through to an email client as opposed to webmail then its ok.

Sorry I also sent these mails to myself as a crosscheck and these are not good test files as the fault did not occur from either source.

The reason I made this mistake is that when I did my very first tests, I used a file which caused truncation when in the message body, and I then found it also caused truncation in the attachment as a .txt file. I then stuck to using attachments because I could easily forward saved sent messages to do new tests without getting the forwarded message ">>>>"s.

So I had assumed that it made no difference whether the text was attached or embedded. Not so. The files I sent Norfett had embedded text and did not get truncated. But the same text sent as an attachment does !?!?!?

I have resent the messages as attachments, which do get truncated by FSmail.

Phil :rolleyes: :shrug:
 
Phill,

The emails came through all fine, same end entry as before, none shortened that I can see...

:confused: :confused:
 
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