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FSmail is truncating my Emails !!!

Robert N suggested
Maybe the next thing to look at is the headers and see if its just one server thats truncating emails.

The following data - no idea how to paste it in here neatly so its just a pile: is the Yahoo server number, the first (receiving) FS server, 2nd (buffer?), then date time and whether file truncated. After 2nd FS server file goes to mwinb3003 all the time.

Yahoo Svr 1st FS 2nd FS Date Time Truncated?
n7---mwinf3116 mwinf3105 03-Apr 05:18 Y
n23--mwinf3206 mwinf3205 03-Apr 10:57 N
n17--mwinf3102 mwinf3105 03-Apr 13:14 N
n19--mwinf3008 mwinf3005 03-Apr 13:28 N
n24--mwinf3204 mwinf3205 03-Apr 17:26 N
n10--mwinf3209 mwinf3205 03-Apr 18:55 N
n8---mwinf3104 mwinf3105 03-Apr 23:00 Y
n28--mwinf3209 mwinf3205 04-Apr 10:53 N
n21--mwinf3103 mwinf3105 04-Apr 11:04 N
n18--mwinf3106 mwinf3105 04-Apr 12:59 N
n33--mwinf3202 mwinf3205 04-Apr 16:32 N
n26--mwinf3002 mwinf3005 04-Apr 17:00 N
n17--mwinf3202 mwinf3205 05-Apr 08:17 N
n20--mwinf3003 mwinf3005 05-Apr 10:20 N
n22--mwinf3213 mwinf3205 05-Apr 12:27 N
n13--mwinf3204 mwinf3205 05-Apr 12:37 Y
n23--mwinf3013 mwinf3005 05-Apr 15:41 Y
n10--mwinf3203 mwinf3205 05-Apr 16:03 N
n9---mwinf3016 mwinf3005 05-Apr 18:54 N
n5---mwinf3016 mwinf3005 06-Apr 01:37 N
n31--mwinf3203 mwinf3205 06-Apr 10:16 Y
n3---mwinf3208 mwinf3205 06-Apr 10:17 Y
n10--mwinf3006 mwinf3005 06-Apr 10:57 Y
n31--mwinf3104 mwinf3105 06-Apr 13:07 Y
n30--mwinf3204 mwinf3205 06-Apr 13:26 N
n13--wminf3011 mwinf3005 06-Apr 20:57 N
n4---mwinf3112 mwinf3105 06-Apr 22:11 N
n34--mwinf3014 mwinf3105 07-Apr 08:11 N
n12--mwinf3007 mwinf3005 07-Apr 08:57 Y
n34--mwinf3011 mwinf3005 07-Apr 09:58 N
n25--mwinf3207 mwinf3205 07-Apr 10:43 Y
n11--mwinf3106 mwinf3105 07-Apr 10:58 N
n36--wminf3112 mwinf3105 07-Apr 11:31 Y
n32--mwinf3102 mwinf3105 07-Apr 14:38 N
n26--mwinf3101 mwinf3105 07-Apr 19:07 N
n1---mwinf3214 mwinf3205 07-Apr 20:12 N
n8---mwinf3016 mwinf3005 07-Apr 21:09 N
n11--mwinf3003 mwinf3005 07-Apr 21:10 N
n8---mwinf3208 mwinf3205 08-Apr 02:26 N
n21--mwinf3202 mwinf3205 08-Apr 08:02 N
n28--mwinf3109 mwinf3105 08-Apr 10:25 N
n11--mwinf3203 mwinf3205 08-Apr 10:49 N
n37--mwinf3114 mwinf3105 08-Apr 12:43 N
n4---mwinf3209 mwinf3205 08-Apr 13:33 N
n8---mwinf3011 mwinf3010 08-Apr 17:54 N
n38--mwinf3213 mwinf3205 08-Apr 19:26 N
n5---mwinf3216 mwinf3205 09-Apr 09:23 N
n38--mwinf3011 mwinf3005 09-Apr 09:24 Y
a136-mwinf3202 mwinf3205 09-Apr 10:52 N
a123-mwinf3008 mwinf3010 09-Apr 11:03 Y
a124-mwinf3101 mwinf3110 09-Apr 18:34 N
n28--mwinf3206 mwinf3210 09-Apr 19:10 Y
a136-mwinf3216 mwinf3205 09-Apr 19:28 N
n19--mwinf3004 mwinf3005 09-Apr 20:33 N

I hope this means something to you, but sorting the lists in Excel they look pretty random, there are only a couple of pairs of Y's on server numbers, in the majority of cases all servers with a Y also have N's.

Any thoughts?
Phil
 
PhilHicks
I have removed the post that had your email address on to the mods. Robert can access them there and check.

PLease would members be aware that if they post their email addys in the open forum you could increase your chance of getting spam emails
 
Kitty said:
I have removed the post that had your email address on to the mods. Robert can access them there and check.
PLease would members be aware that if they post their email addys in the open forum you could increase your chance of getting spam emails

Thanks Kitty

I made the mistake of assuming the forum software would hide them.
For the sake of continuing public discussion I am reposting with the address hidden:

Robert N suggested:
Time to compare full email headers then and see what the difference is.

I will post below 4 headers.
A) Is from a truncated incoming Yahoo group message digest
B) Is from a complete incoming Yahoo group message digest
C) Is from a message with truncated file attachment
D) Is from a message with complete file attachment, where the file is slighty editted (shortened past problem area) to allow it to send

A)
Return-Path: <sentto-9389853-500-1082543243-phil=XXX.fslife.co.uk@returns.groups.yahoo.com>
Received: from mwinf3005.me.freeserve.com (mwinf3005.me.freeserve.com)
by mwinb3003 (SMTP Server) with LMTP; W%d, 21 Apr 2004 12:27:25 +0200
X-Sieve: Server Sieve 2.2
Received: from mwinf3009.me.freeserve.com (mwinf3009.me-wanadoo.net [172.22.159.39])
by mwinf3005.me.freeserve.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 787141803F94
for <1+fu5000000000000000009875259@back30-mail01-02.me-wanadoo.net>; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:27:25 +0200 (CEST)
Received: by mwinf3009.me.freeserve.com (SMTP Server, from userid 1003)
id 7487318000D3; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:27:25 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from n45.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n45.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.67.21])
by mwinf3009.me.freeserve.com (SMTP Server) with SMTP id 27C151800180
for <phil@XXX.fslife.co.uk>; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:27:24 +0200 (CEST)
X-eGroups-Return: sentto-9389853-500-1082543243-phil=XXX.fslife.co.uk@returns.groups.yahoo.com
Received: from [66.218.67.200] by n45.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Apr 2004 10:27:23 -0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <1082543243.1919.30340.m8@yahoogroups.com>
Mailing-List: list UKFamilies-HomeEd@yahoogroups.com; contact UKFamilies-HomeEd-owner@yahoogroups.com
Delivered-To: mailing list UKFamilies-HomeEd@yahoogroups.com
Precedence: bulk
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:UKFamilies-HomeEd-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 21 Apr 2004 10:27:23 -0000
From: UKFamilies-HomeEd@yahoogroups.com
To: UKFamilies-HomeEd@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [UKFamilies-HomeEd] Digest Number 500
Reply-To: UKFamilies-HomeEd@yahoogroups.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Envelope-to: phil@XXX.fslife.co.uk
X-me-spamlevel: not-spam
X-me-spamrating: 0.000000

B)
Return-Path: <sentto-9389853-499-1082506484-phil=XXX.fslife.co.uk@returns.groups.yahoo.com>
Received: from mwinf3005.me.freeserve.com (mwinf3005.me.freeserve.com)
by mwinb3003 (SMTP Server) with LMTP; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 02:14:47 +0200
X-Sieve: Server Sieve 2.2
Received: from mwinf3012.me.freeserve.com (mwinf3012 [172.22.159.36])
by mwinf3005.me.freeserve.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP
id 7B6681803400; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 02:14:47 +0200 (CEST)
Received: by mwinf3012.me.freeserve.com (SMTP Server, from userid 1003)
id 75D2718000EA; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 02:14:47 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com (n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.66.84])
by mwinf3012.me.freeserve.com (SMTP Server) with SMTP id 0FD271800143
for <phil@XXX.fslife.co.uk>; Wed, 21 Apr 2004 02:14:46 +0200 (CEST)
X-eGroups-Return: sentto-9389853-499-1082506484-phil=XXX.fslife.co.uk@returns.groups.yahoo.com
Received: from [66.218.66.28] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Apr 2004 00:14:45 -0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <1082506484.140372.71639.m22@yahoogroups.com>
Mailing-List: list UKFamilies-HomeEd@yahoogroups.com; contact UKFamilies-HomeEd-owner@yahoogroups.com
Delivered-To: mailing list UKFamilies-HomeEd@yahoogroups.com
Precedence: bulk
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:UKFamilies-HomeEd-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 21 Apr 2004 00:14:44 -0000
From: UKFamilies-HomeEd@yahoogroups.com
To: UKFamilies-HomeEd@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [UKFamilies-HomeEd] Digest Number 499
Reply-To: UKFamilies-HomeEd@yahoogroups.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Envelope-to: phil@XXX.fslife.co.uk
X-me-spamlevel: not-spam
X-me-spamrating: 1.605832

C)
Return-Path: <phil@XXX.fslife.co.uk>
Received: from mwinf3111.me.freeserve.com (mwinf3111.me.freeserve.com)
by mwinb3003 (SMTP Server) with LMTP; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 17:49:17 +0200
X-Sieve: Server Sieve 2.2
Received: by mwinf3111.me.freeserve.com (SMTP Server, from userid 1003)
id 915AE1800091; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 17:49:17 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.19])
by mwinf3111.me.freeserve.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 2BF28180008F
for <phil@XXX.fslife.co.uk>; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 17:49:17 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from modem-3110.karuhiruhi.dialup.pol.co.uk ([81.78.140.38] helo=y8b0q2)
by cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.14)
id 1BD3fs-0003Vu-RW
for phil@XXX.fslife.co.uk; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 16:48:41 +0100
Message-ID: <056801c420a4$b5ec3ca0$7e8c4e51@y8b0q2>
From: "Phil Hicks" <phil@XXX.fslife.co.uk>
To: "Phil Hicks" <phil@XXX.fslife.co.uk>
Subject: sample file 52
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 16:42:06 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0565_01C420AD.171994C0"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Envelope-to: phil@XXX.fslife.co.uk

D)
Return-Path: <phil@XXX.fslife.co.uk>
Received: from mwinf3102.me.freeserve.com (mwinf3102.me.freeserve.com)
by mwinb3003 (SMTP Server) with LMTP; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 17:46:37 +0200
X-Sieve: Server Sieve 2.2
Received: by mwinf3102.me.freeserve.com (SMTP Server, from userid 1003)
id A24CA1800096; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 17:46:37 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from cmailm1.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailm1.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.18])
by mwinf3102.me.freeserve.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 296D61800091
for <phil@XXX.fslife.co.uk>; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 17:46:37 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from modem-3110.karuhiruhi.dialup.pol.co.uk ([81.78.140.38] helo=y8b0q2)
by cmailm1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.14)
id 1BD3dJ-0004YM-Ty
for phil@XXX.fslife.co.uk; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 16:46:02 +0100
Message-ID: <055901c420a4$57a25bc0$7e8c4e51@y8b0q2>
From: "Phil Hicks" <phil@XXX.fslife.co.uk>
To: "Phil Hicks" <phil@XXX.fslife.co.uk>
Subject: sample file 51
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 16:39:28 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0556_01C420AC.B8D8DBA0"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Envelope-to: phil@XXX.fslife.co.uk

Any thoughts?

Phil
 
I cant see owt in there that would cut the size down. This is an odd one.

I mean, cos the files when you sent them to me, didnt appear shortened - Thunderbird (Mozilla) for email just puts the attachment as inline anyhoos cos its text.

Added: I've just saved both files to my desktop and both are 308k each - exact same file size.

So where its getting truncated I dont know :S But it looks like something to do with Outlook maybe now? :confused: :confused:
 
Last edited:
Norfett wrote: So where its getting truncated I dont know :S But it looks like something to do with Outlook maybe now?

Not Outlook Express because:

If I send from OE to you or my Hotmail file is not truncated, therefore send from OE is okay.
If I send to Freeserve from Hotmail (therefore no OE at sending end), as well as from my Freeserve (with OE), both files are truncated in an identical way within FSmail. So receiving from Hotmail can be truncated, so OE is not the factor responsible. This truncation is not caused by the recieving OE because the file truncation is *before* downloading the file to my POP3 Email client; i.e. if I use the FSmail webpage to access the inbox on the FSmail server the file sizes are already shortened, the same as they are after I do download.

So I have eliminated the sending machines and the receiving machines by substitution. There are no two ways about this one - logic dictates that it is FSmail that is at fault. Even Freeserve tech support agreed that !!! No doubt other variations caused by the sending machines maybe contributing to whether the file is shortened or not, but the shortening itself is occuring in FSmail.

This is fairly clear anyway from the fact that on the groups only 3 Freeserve users out of 2000 members have complained of digest truncation, and there will be lots of other digest users getting complete digests or they would be shouting my now.

Phil
 
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Interesting new, and much simpler test, discovered on a Yahoo Groups moderator forum:

If you send the following text, i.e. just the lines between the quotation marks, to an account with this problem, you will lose everything after the full stop !!!!! :

"
1
2
.
3
4
"


:eek: :shrug: :laugh: :shrug: :eek:

Three new independent additional Freeserve users reporting problem.

Phil
 
Robert N said:
Could be there anti spam filters gone wonky. The spam rating of zero for the a) and not zero for b) surgests it cut the email off at the point it detcted some spam like content.

I've heard fs also have been blocking emails with certain subjects as well.

Um, actually a) was the one that got truncated, I posted them that way round to illustrate that the spam filter didnt appear to be the culprit. See my last post, it looks like it is some really low level character triggered problem.

Yes I wasted an hour one morning discovering they no longer allowed Emails with a subject line of Hello !!!!!! Some of the decisions being made in Freeserve seem ..... how can I put this without being offensive..... to lack a rigorous foundation in analysis of the problem, formulation of a solution, and testing the proposed solution.

Phil
 
Right, the file size is smaller, but when you open the file is anything missing?

It only seems to be on you receiving it in fsmail - maybe thats just reporting the size wrong? :confused: :confused:
 
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The 308kB test file is usually truncated to 13.4kB. The file size reduction correlates before and after download and if the file is opened in webmail the cutoff point can be seen in the text, and is identical after it is downloaded. Downloading is not altering the content any further so far as I have observed.

Phil
 
Robert Naylor said
No I meant it was odd having a spam rating of zero, possibly meaning fs had cut the email at the first sign of spam.

Ah I see what you're saying. Had a quick check, some non truncated mails also get zero. The range of values on truncated and non truncated seem similar.

Phil
 
Robert N said
Just singed up for an account myself and tested the
.
thing myself and and truncates emails. Somethings def up with it, and its time they addmited there was a fault if there still denying it.

Well they admit that my file transmission problem exists but they prevaricate by saying things like:

20/4:"We are still investigating this problem.
Please accept our apologies as this is taking much longer than
anticipated.
This is because the file you referred to previously is the only file
which appears to be still causing a problem - we have vigorously tested
the account and can only reproduce the error with this single document.

We are still looking through."

followed by

22/4:"The problem here is caused by Spam being sent from the yahoo mailserver - a result of which we have blocked the transmission of mail from these servers.

You will need to contact yahoo to insist they remove themselves from our blacklist - something only they can do themselves"

You can see why I got a bit ratty at that point.

But I think I have their attention at the moment as I am getting reasonable updates from tech support about their investigation. Perhaps because.....

Freeserve time to fix problem:
19 Emails so far..
7 users confirmed with the problem...
21 days since problem began...
14 days since problem reported.....
12 days since problem confirmed by Freeserve Tech Support.......
560 persons to date viewed my public forum reports of the problem....
and 4000 on groups maillists aware .... and counting.

By all means send in a separate Q and ask what they are doing to resolve it though. That <dot> file test is amazingly simple to fail transmission !

Phil
 
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OK, this is the issue as far as I have been able to learn about it from others much wiser and more techy than me (respect to Lena at kiev.ua on the Yahoo Groups moderators forum for her brains).

Freeserve mail is not correctly handling the character sequence carriage return, dot, carriage return at present. This sequence of characters is actually used in mail files to indicate the end of the file. If the sequence occurs in text to be transmitted, then it should be "packed" with additional spaces in a predetermined way, so that they can always be extracted again at the receiving end. There are specific protocols for doing this, and somewhere amongst the virus and spam filter code changes, a problem has been introduced. As a result of the problem when the sequence described above is transmitted as part of the text file, it is being misinterpreted as an end of file code, as illustrated by the test sequence I described earlier, where transmission of:

1
2
.
3
4

results in nothing arriving after the 2 if the file is sent through FSmail.

The other problems I identified are alternate manifestations of the same problem. Firstly my digests. Lena explained to me that digest mailling servers will mail the digest in one of two modes: plain 7 bit text, or quoted-printable. If there are special (8 bit) characters in the text included in the digest, then the file will be sent quoted-printable. One aspect of the quoted-printable encoding is that a line break is automatically inserted after 75 characters. If a sentence of 76 characters ending in a full stop and carriage return is in the source text, the quoted-printable encoding automatically creates the sequence carriage return, dot, carriage return. This then results in the Freeserve mail truncation. Since 76 characters is a pretty typical line length, the problem occurs in a high proportion of quoted-printable encoded digests. And any other line length which starts omewhere and happens to end up with a dot at character 76 will have the same effect. I have checked back through my truncated digests and this is true. They are all quoted-printable encoded, whereas there are no truncated 7bit encoded digests, and they all truncate where there should be a full stop (checked against Yahoo original messages by web access)

Finally what about the test file I found where removing the 5 overscores avoided truncation of the first part of the file? Sure enough without those particular characters the file is encoded in 7bit. So it always tranasmitted correctly with them removed. When the special characters are included in the file, the file is encoded quoted-printable, and the file transmission is truncated by Freeserve at the first 76th character on a line which is a dot - which also explains why the file always truncates in the same place.

So what are Freeserve doing wrong. Lena has even offered them two likely theories.
Apparently if you try to send the sequence:
1
.....
2

and end up with 4 dots instead of 5, then you are not compliant with a mail protocol described here: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2821.txt

But Freeserve passes that one okay. So Lena says there may well be a fault in the mail code:
"If there are five dots then the cause more likely is slightly incorrect invoking of "sendmail" program, possibly in a buggy spam-filter.
"A pipe to /usr/sbin/sendmail" is usual method to send a letter from a program or a script on a Unix/Linux machine. A fine point which can be overlooked: the pipe must be not just to "/usr/sbin/sendmail", but to "/usr/sbin/sendmail -i". I quote sendmail manpage:

| -i Ignore dots alone on lines by themselves in
| incoming messages. This should be set if you are
| reading data from a file.

It also should be set if sendmail reads data from a pipe.
The "-i" parameter can alternatively be written as
"-o IgnoreDots" or "-oi". "

So Freeserve - the knowledgable Lena explained as soon as I asked what is happening while it has taken you 25 days - now how about fixing it? How long can an Email bug take to fix?

22 Emails to Freeserve so far.. gap of 5 days since last response from Freeserve...
11 users confirmed with the problem...
25 days since problem began...
18 days since problem reported.....
16 days since problem confirmed by Freeserve Tech Support.......
750 persons to date viewed my public forum reports of the problem....
7500 aware of problem through Yahoo groups support lists
...... and counting ;-)))))

Phil
 
Why don't you get your digests sent to another e-mail address? If Freeserve don't want to or are unable to help, then perhaps this would be a better option?

It could be that Freeserve chose not to implement the "-i" switch for some other reason? Using Sendmail without the '-i' is the default anyways!

Obviously assuming Freeserve are using sendmail :)

Would be nice for them to reply though!

Lena may be some genius but me searching for "truncated digest messages" also came up with the same answer in the newsgroups (and no it wasn't Lena's reply to you! ;) ) remember Google is your friend!
 
Why don't you get your digests sent to another e-mail address? If Freeserve don't want to or are unable to help, then perhaps this would be a better option?

Good question really:

Always reluctant to jump, will it be any better on the other side?
I'm an engineer: I want to make it WORK.
I'm an engineer: I want to know why it doesnt work.
I'm an engineer: I want someone to take responsibility for the fact that it worked for 3 years and then they broke it suddenly.
There are x0,000 other Freeserve users out there who dont know how to raise the issue with Freeserve, so I have a sense of public service.... I know that cos I met some of them on my lists ;-)
I'm a creature of habit, I have survived on one Email address for 8 years (okay I changed from Compuserve to Freeserve but only had one Email at any time).
I dont want the hassle of having to sort something new out, and dont mind the hassle of trying to eat an elephant - its entertaining.
I like loyalty and would like Freeserve to do the proper thing, keep me informed and sort it.
I can get by cos I get all the message lists at the start of digest okay so I know whats there and can go on the web group access and get an missing messages I want.
But actually I'm reaching the end of my tether and will move pretty soon ;-)

Phil
 
Update 3/5

On 28/4, 25 days after the problem began Freeserve finally asked for a phone number and called me. However when they called they ignored all previous reports and asked again! for details of the problem. However the caller was clearly very efficient and did understand the problems described and called me back later to confirm that they acknowledged the problem existed, and that they had raised an internal work order to get it resolved, and will call me when it has been addressed. But no timescale was offered. So maybe a solution is on its way...... 30 days and counting.

Meanwhile I had to find another solution as a month of disrupted Email is long enough, so I have just set up a domain based POP3 Email address. At £18/year including a .com domain address and 5 POPs for the family its a trivial cost if its going to give reliable Email service. Now off to look at broadband, since Wanadoo has announced new pricing, and Plusnet replied with £15/month 512K broadband, Anytime is looking a bit costly anyway !
 
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