Sponsored Links

How do "old" wayleaves work?

Hi there, so I've been thinking about a minor issue with regards to a future upgrade for FTTP, when they come to build it [presumably in 2024]. The house I live in was built between 1995 - 2000, so at the time, Openreach [in its current form] did not exist, instead the agreements would have been directly with BT Openreach/BT Group.

Main questions:

1) Would a wayleave agreement have been set up for BT [at the time] to provide the copper cabling that still exists in this property, or were such things not used to provision the network back then?
2) When Openreach come along to provide FTTP, would that wayleave still be on the records for them to use as "we can build the new network here", or would a brand new agreement be required?

I have a feeling the answer to Q2 will be when they come to do an initial site assessment [for the initial database records that say what kind of feed it will be and what issues, if any, will occur], but am curious if I can get ahead of the game by asking our landlord to agree that we can get FTTP when it comes along.

TIA for any answers and Happy New Year to all, hopefully 2024 is the year when FTTP arrives to me 🥳
 
In answer to your questions.

1. For an ordinary domestic detached or semi-detached property, It’s unlikely that there will be a wayleave with BT, because none is needed in these circumstances.

2. When it comes time to install FTTP they will simply install it. There is no further wayleave required.

If you lived in a flat, apartment or a house where Openreach would need to install their cabling and any apppartus across part of the property that you did no own and therefore have implicit permission for them to install - for example part of the property ‘owned’ by a landlord or other freeholder; external walls, corridors, common areas, gardens and outside space etc. Then you would need that party’s permission via a wayleave.

Otherwise it’s not something that you need to concern yourself about.
 
In answer to your questions.

1. For an ordinary domestic detached or semi-detached property, It’s unlikely that there will be a wayleave with BT, because none is needed in these circumstances.

2. When it comes time to install FTTP they will simply install it. There is no further wayleave required.

If you lived in a flat, apartment or a house where Openreach would need to install their cabling and any apppartus across part of the property that you did no own and therefore have implicit permission for them to install - for example part of the property ‘owned’ by a landlord or other freeholder; external walls, corridors, common areas, gardens and outside space etc. Then you would need that party’s permission via a wayleave.

Otherwise it’s not something that you need to concern yourself about.
Thanks a bunch for this! Good to know that wayleaves will not be a concern for me, I suppose all I need to do is just confirm with my landlord [as you say its a detached property, so not a flat or MDU] that they're fine with me upgrading the internet service to FTTP when its here. 🥳
 
Sponsored Links
I guess a really easy rule of thumb is that wayleaves are needed when someone else's property is between yours and the network. Be that a shared drive, an MDU's owner, whatever.
 
Afaik the wayleaves are still with BT - Openreach operate the network on behalf of BT, but BT own it.

More importantly - who are you anticipating a wayleave to need to be agreed by? Connecting a single house doesn't require a wayleave unless you are involving things like a shared private drive, but something built in 1995 will definitely have a wayleave on file that permits access for maintenance. Replacing a cable in a duct is a maintenance task.

Landlord permission might be something you want to ask for or need to obtain but it's not something BT get involved with for single houses - someone over 18 signing off on the job will be taken as consent to do the work and then any disagreement will be between you and your landlord.
 
Afaik the wayleaves are still with BT - Openreach operate the network on behalf of BT, but BT own it.

More importantly - who are you anticipating a wayleave to need to be agreed by? Connecting a single house doesn't require a wayleave unless you are involving things like a shared private drive, but something built in 1995 will definitely have a wayleave on file that permits access for maintenance. Replacing a cable in a duct is a maintenance task.

Landlord permission might be something you want to ask for or need to obtain but it's not something BT get involved with for single houses - someone over 18 signing off on the job will be taken as consent to do the work and then any disagreement will be between you and your landlord.
I guess my reasoning is how the articles on the Openreach website talk about landlords/wayleaves, its made to sound like anyone who doesn't own the house they live in needs a wayleave agreement. But I assume that the previous wayleave agreement [to build the original network] would count as sufficient right to complete any work.

And yeah, landlord permission wouldn't be something BT would need, but our tenancy agreement says we're not allowed to "damage" (which is vaguely described) the property, they could legitimately count "adding FTTP" as "doing damage" if they [the company that handles the tenancy] wanted to be annoying about it all, so asking the landlord just to confirm they are fine with it just legally covers me on that side of things 😊

Thanks all for the answers!!
 
Landlord in that example would be referring to the landlord, appointed agent or freeholder of a multi-dwelling unit. It's also common in commercial premises to need a wayleave agreement to get a service installed to your particular shop unit in a mall, or floor in an office building etc. It's not really concerned about rented houses with ground floor access.

It's not legal advice but I always took the approach of asking for forgiveness rather than permission on things like this - if the installation is done in a way that isn't devaluing the property, doesn't cause damage that needs to be repaired, couldn't be done in any neater way etc. then what loss can the property owner claim to have incurred? I can see why people could get upset with 20mm holes drilled through walls, blowing brickwork out and not being sealed back up again, or installers drilling in the wrong place and damaging skirting boards or hitting pipes or other cables, but no landlord should care enough about a small ONT to waste their time objecting to it or imposing conditions like requiring it to be removed at the end of the tenancy.

I didn't get permission to have FTTC installed in a rental house, in the days when that involved a socket replacement and mounting the Huawei modem to the wall. Nobody cared because there wasn't really an alternative approach to that, it was a neat job, and it improved the house.
 
Sponsored Links
Hi there, so I've been thinking about a minor issue with regards to a future upgrade for FTTP, when they come to build it [presumably in 2024]. The house I live in was built between 1995 - 2000, so at the time, Openreach [in its current form] did not exist, instead the agreements would have been directly with BT Openreach/BT Group.

Main questions:

1) Would a wayleave agreement have been set up for BT [at the time] to provide the copper cabling that still exists in this property, or were such things not used to provision the network back then?
2) When Openreach come along to provide FTTP, would that wayleave still be on the records for them to use as "we can build the new network here", or would a brand new agreement be required?

I have a feeling the answer to Q2 will be when they come to do an initial site assessment [for the initial database records that say what kind of feed it will be and what issues, if any, will occur], but am curious if I can get ahead of the game by asking our landlord to agree that we can get FTTP when it comes along.

TIA for any answers and Happy New Year to all, hopefully 2024 is the year when FTTP arrives to me 🥳

@Some Edinburgh Guy

This might help :-

 
Landlord in that example would be referring to the landlord, appointed agent or freeholder of a multi-dwelling unit. It's also common in commercial premises to need a wayleave agreement to get a service installed to your particular shop unit in a mall, or floor in an office building etc. It's not really concerned about rented houses with ground floor access.
Ahhhh, gotcha. I guess i was thrown by the description saying “such as an apartment”, when talking about landlords, implying this was just one common example of a use of wayleaves, rather than the [probably] only use for them in that context. Thanks for clarifying!
It's not legal advice but I always took the approach of asking for forgiveness rather than permission on things like this - if the installation is done in a way that isn't devaluing the property, doesn't cause damage that needs to be repaired, couldn't be done in any neater way etc. then what loss can the property owner claim to have incurred? I can see why people could get upset with 20mm holes drilled through walls, blowing brickwork out and not being sealed back up again, or installers drilling in the wrong place and damaging skirting boards or hitting pipes or other cables, but no landlord should care enough about a small ONT to waste their time objecting to it or imposing conditions like requiring it to be removed at the end of the tenancy.

I didn't get permission to have FTTC installed in a rental house, in the days when that involved a socket replacement and mounting the Huawei modem to the wall. Nobody cared because there wasn't really an alternative approach to that, it was a neat job, and it improved the house.
Yeah, replacing the master socket happened here when i moved in 2019, but that was because of a line fault [house was unused for many months prior, and line was very noisy], so naturally we didn’t count that since it wasn’t our problem and wasn’t causing any actual damage. Building a new network that didn’t exist when we first took on the property may pose challenges, but once its fitted, they can hardly tell us to remove it since it doesn’t belong to us at all [the cable and ont]. The tenancy agreement that we have here is kinda weird, even things like having extra satellite cables would have to be removed because there’s now a “visible hole in the wall” from where they were drilled in, obvs in fttp that hole will most likely be invisible].

As you say, forgiveness is probably all that matters in a situation like this, especially since this will be the first major network upgrade the uk has had since the days of copper wires being added, and which has involved building something brand new that impacts people in their houses [one time tho], though out of courtesy, i’ll just let the landlord know they [openreach] are upgrading the internet, they’ll probably say yes anyway.
 
Top
Cheap BIG ISPs for 100Mbps+
Community Fibre UK ISP Logo
150Mbps
Gift: None
Virgin Media UK ISP Logo
Virgin Media £22.99
132Mbps
Gift: None
Vodafone UK ISP Logo
Vodafone £24.00 - 26.00
150Mbps
Gift: None
NOW UK ISP Logo
NOW £24.00
100Mbps
Gift: None
Plusnet UK ISP Logo
Plusnet £25.99
145Mbps
Gift: £50 Reward Card
Large Availability | View All
Cheapest ISPs for 100Mbps+
Gigaclear UK ISP Logo
Gigaclear £17.00
200Mbps
Gift: None
Community Fibre UK ISP Logo
150Mbps
Gift: None
Virgin Media UK ISP Logo
Virgin Media £22.99
132Mbps
Gift: None
Hey! Broadband UK ISP Logo
150Mbps
Gift: None
Youfibre UK ISP Logo
Youfibre £23.99
150Mbps
Gift: None
Large Availability | View All
Sponsored Links
The Top 15 Category Tags
  1. FTTP (6026)
  2. BT (3639)
  3. Politics (2721)
  4. Business (2439)
  5. Openreach (2405)
  6. Building Digital UK (2330)
  7. Mobile Broadband (2146)
  8. FTTC (2083)
  9. Statistics (1901)
  10. 4G (1816)
  11. Virgin Media (1764)
  12. Ofcom Regulation (1582)
  13. Fibre Optic (1467)
  14. Wireless Internet (1462)
  15. 5G (1407)
Sponsored

Copyright © 1999 to Present - ISPreview.co.uk - All Rights Reserved - Terms  ,  Privacy and Cookie Policy  ,  Links  ,  Website Rules