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Is a good 4G setup capable of competing with Starlink in rural locations?

justgottaclimb

Casual Member
I'll be traveling across the UK in my van next year (England, Scotland, Wales) and typically spending my time in the most remote areas I can find in the mountains.

I'll be working full-time, so stable internet is essential. Naturally, I'm drawn to Starlink, however, there are a few things I'm not a fan of.

I haven't got an easy way to place it permanently (limited space on the roof), the cost is significantly higher (not a deal breaker), I often like to be around trees (not ideal) and I wouldn't be able to use it on the move (frustrating).

It also appears to draw quite a lot more power than a 4G setup, but I may be wrong there.

I like 4G since it'd be permanent, the antenna would be far more compact and wouldn't require as much space on the roof, convenient to feed the wires, small, can use on the go, cheap, etc.

If I were to get a great router, and a great antenna (which soon adds up to almost the same as the Starlink hardware) would I likely be free from dead spots? I don't necessarily need high-speed internet - probably 2-3MBit.

Any help/advice is appreciated. I know that Starlink is the obvious answer, but it doesn't come without its complications.
 
Yes, though @Meatball may be able to advise as they currently are using 4g and 5g in their campervan:

Thread with details
Very handy to know, thank you.

A slightly different approach where I don't mind spending a bit of cash on the right setup. It seems that his quest has become increasingly complicated.

I mostly need to have confidence that it'll work consistently, really.

Perhaps having a simple approach with my phone as a Hotspot, and Starlink as a backup when I need to go through the faff of setting it up is going to be my best bet?

I'd rather not go all out with expensive modems and antennas alongside Starlink if I can help it. It very quickly gets into the four-figures then!
 
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The first thing is to determine what network service you need.
  • is it while you are on the road or at stopovers
  • primarily voice, data or both
  • if stopovers are they near civilisation or wild camping
  • how isolated are the areas that you will be visiting
  • what is the realistic speed required (on road and stationary)
  • what other devices will use the network
The most reliable network is EE but travelling around many very rural areas this can easily break and there will always be locations without any useable signal.

In rural Wales some locations only had O2 and this could be 3G.

My experience is that you really need a Dual SIM solution in a Primary/Secondary arrangement. Ideally with the two other network options available by SIM swaps. The actual pairing will depend on your use case for instance O2 are good for voice (availability of 3G or 4G not quality) so you can have a simple arrangement of an O2 (MVNO such as Sky) for voice and data on say an EE SIM. I check general coverage before any tour. To save going to different maps I use msh's https://bidb.uk/ and hover for the mobile provider to pick the best pairing.

I haven't really bothered with antennas as I have had poor results, wasted a lot of money and I do not want to spend time playing with them (not travelling alone). Instead, I prefer allowing the device to get the best of whatever the mast I come across can provide. For touring my roof is fibreglass and I have successful results with tethered phones, MIFI and Routers. When on site I have a 5m telescopic pole that I can hoist a MIFI on (tried 5G phone but too expensive to risk).

On my last visit to Wales, I stayed just outside Brecon and had excellent 5G on n78. 5G may become more significant going forward and of course compatibility with n28. In the Brecon Beacons I lost all signal and GPS and had to just drive by the sun to the next main road. It is how it is.

I have used the following:

Note : When using good phones to protect the batteries I use a Chargie and its app. The phones have a USB 2.0 speed limitation. I have tested my iPhone 13 but do not use it for tethering. In addition, I do not use WIFI on tethered phones and shut down as much as possible to reduce charge cycles and heat (especially in summer).

Two tethered 5G phones (Samsung A22 5G and Moto G50 5G) using Ethernet to Edgerouter X (load balancing) to various makes of WIFI APs.

One tethered 5G phone directly to GL.INET Beryl via USB

Two tethered 5G phone directly to GL.INET Beryl one on USB the other on Ethernet. The Beryl set for failover.

Two tethered Cat 7 MIFI (old BT Mini and EE Mini Cat 7). One via USB to the Beryl and the other via a Mango to the Beryl. Beryl in failover.

Currently playing with a GL.Inet Opal as a cheaper 4G option, Openwrt and load balancing.

For mast testing I use the 5G phones but for 4G I use a single Alcatel HH71 (Cat 7) and more recently a Zyxel NR5103E (excellent but big) but these are not really suited for general van use as they cannot be mounted high in van roof for their reception and be unintrusive.

In addition to tablet etc I have my personal iPhone 13 which can connect with the van WIFI. I also have an old iPhone SE on the dash with its own SIM (low data plan) on the dash to stream (radio and music) and for GPS. If a mobile signal feeding the van is lost the van WIFI will still be present so to provide resilience whilst on the road I use Speedify software so the switching between the van WIFI and the internal phone SIM is instantaneous. Breaks in streaming are very rare.

The combinations are endless. You can of course go and buy a single unit to do it all, but I always set myself a budget for a solution.

I steer clear of cheap 4G Cat4 stuff now (other than what I have already) as these are too expensive for what they are and less likely to get the best from a mast now. Hence use of Cat 7 MIFI which are about £30 on eBay and easily unlocked. Will use 5G modems when cost/availability comes.

If you are to be parking in very remote car parking areas, you are very likely to have no signal and may be on shared masts at others. Satellite is probably your only option. Cheaper options are on the horizon but for now it is an expensive investment and £50 per month. Yes, you will probably need a generator for prolonged visits (assume you will have solar panel).


Edit: Just thought. You also need to carry a WIFI device you can put into Client/Wisp mode as some locations may have WIFI pubs/villages/camp sites.
 
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The newer Starlink terminals consume a lot less power than the older ones (about 35W compared to 100W) but still much more than a 5G AP (about 5W), if this matters to you.

If you want to use it on a camper van you'll also need the more expensive "Starlink for RVs" which is £460 + £95/month -- and this does allow use while in motion, as well as being more suitable for roof mounting.


You still need a reasonable clear-sky view though, but that should be the case in most places you're likely to park a van -- except under trees...
 
Having spent some time trialing different Set Ups with a friend who is looking at decent Internet Access in the Middle of nowhere, He is now trialing and using Starlink, over other methods, but personally I believe he would have been better off on some of the 4G / 5G Trials we did, maybe I didn't push Him in that direction enough.

Couple of things to consider, although Starlink does do what it says on the tin, there is always the Intial Set Up to do for each location, the overhead restrictions and the Weather to contend with, the Speeds are ok but the Price is a bit challenging, its worth bearing in mind that what you pay per month for Starlink you could probably justifly paying for 4 x Sims per month for All of the UK Networks.

Another option is to look at is something like Glocalme Cloud Sim, although it more of a Global Solution, the Idea is it will automatically choose and connect to the Best Network in each Location (That's their claim), whether the Best Network is Best Signal or Best Speed, yet to find out.

I current got the Numan U5 5G Mobile WiFi Router which Im about to Trail and Evaulate for another Boat Traverler, which is a Portable model that Glocalme recommend, one of the benifits of the Unit is you can use the GlocalMe Cloud Sim or you can insert a normal Network SIM and or choose between the two. Aperantly the Numan Device(s) can connect to a Starlink setup, again yet to find out.

 
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I grew up on the Thames and lived on a boat for about 1/2 of my adult life. When I bought my first boat I used to use a Nokia which I tethered to my Pentium 3 laptop for GPRS speed - almost as fast as dialup! Yes, I am that old. :)

Having looked at Starlink I would not want to take the plunge at the minute. My feeling is Elon Musk has rather over-committed himself and his vanity projects (like this one) may not get the investment it needs to work well. I'd hate to make an investment in equipment I couldn't use for some other network and be stuck with something that was useless.

My understanding is the problem with satellite Internet has always been that the network slows down depending on the number of other users and adding extra capacity costs a massive amount of extra money. How many Starlink packages will he sell? Will more satellites be launched to keep up with the number of packages sold?

Also 35w is very high compared to a 4G/5G device with a battery. It is all extra batteries, which is all extra weight, which is all extra fuel consumption. With a phone and mobile, you can charge the batteries as you drive then rely on your device's battery when you stop (when you're using your device!). Charging a 4g router makes no difference at all when you think about the output from your van's alternator. The Starlink system appears not to have its own battery - that means you are draining your batteries whenever you're parked, which means more solar panels and batteries. All more stuff to go wrong.

Everything that makes your vehicle more hassle is a bad idea.
 
My understanding is the problem with satellite Internet has always been that the network slows down depending on the number of other users and adding extra capacity costs a massive amount of extra money. How many Starlink packages will he sell? Will more satellites be launched to keep up with the number of packages sold?

I think that won't be as much of a problem in the UK as it is in other places because there are less users using the service. We just don't have the vast areas with poor or no service at all that countries like Australia or the US have.

Smaller countries/places without much need for fast satellite internet actually have an advantage here. As SpaceX keeps adding capacity because other places need it, we get more than we need (their satellites are in low earth orbit, so they keep moving). And because of the orbit of most of their satellites, the are always multiple above the UK (not the case in other latitudes):

w2ZGm0c.png


Compare this to a place like Texas:

2wMP8Qj.png


(from: https://satellitemap.space/ )

I don't know if Starlink is the best option in this case, by the way. I just don't think we'll have the capacity problems other places might have or that the complaints from users in other regions necessary apply to the UK.

-----

Edit just to add that the point about areas with more satellites depends on the orbits used by the provider. What I wrote is valid for Starlink's current constellation, but a service like OneWeb would be different as they're using a polar orbit (not sure if it's the correct name), so they "accumulate" more above the poles:

iA8NfbV.png
 
Last edited:
The first thing is to determine what network service you need.
  • is it while you are on the road or at stopovers
  • primarily voice, data or both
  • if stopovers are they near civilisation or wild camping
  • how isolated are the areas that you will be visiting
  • what is the realistic speed required (on road and stationary)
  • what other devices will use the network
The most reliable network is EE but travelling around many very rural areas this can easily break and there will always be locations without any useable signal.

In rural Wales some locations only had O2 and this could be 3G.

My experience is that you really need a Dual SIM solution in a Primary/Secondary arrangement. Ideally with the two other network options available by SIM swaps. The actual pairing will depend on your use case for instance O2 are good for voice (availability of 3G or 4G not quality) so you can have a simple arrangement of an O2 (MVNO such as Sky) for voice and data on say an EE SIM. I check general coverage before any tour. To save going to different maps I use msh's https://bidb.uk/ and hover for the mobile provider to pick the best pairing.

I haven't really bothered with antennas as I have had poor results, wasted a lot of money and I do not want to spend time playing with them (not travelling alone). Instead, I prefer allowing the device to get the best of whatever the mast I come across can provide. For touring my roof is fibreglass and I have successful results with tethered phones, MIFI and Routers. When on site I have a 5m telescopic pole that I can hoist a MIFI on (tried 5G phone but too expensive to risk).

On my last visit to Wales, I stayed just outside Brecon and had excellent 5G on n78. 5G may become more significant going forward and of course compatibility with n28. In the Brecon Beacons I lost all signal and GPS and had to just drive by the sun to the next main road. It is how it is.

I have used the following:

Note : When using good phones to protect the batteries I use a Chargie and its app. The phones have a USB 2.0 speed limitation. I have tested my iPhone 13 but do not use it for tethering. In addition, I do not use WIFI on tethered phones and shut down as much as possible to reduce charge cycles and heat (especially in summer).

Two tethered 5G phones (Samsung A22 5G and Moto G50 5G) using Ethernet to Edgerouter X (load balancing) to various makes of WIFI APs.

One tethered 5G phone directly to GL.INET Beryl via USB

Two tethered 5G phone directly to GL.INET Beryl one on USB the other on Ethernet. The Beryl set for failover.

Two tethered Cat 7 MIFI (old BT Mini and EE Mini Cat 7). One via USB to the Beryl and the other via a Mango to the Beryl. Beryl in failover.

Currently playing with a GL.Inet Opal as a cheaper 4G option, Openwrt and load balancing.

For mast testing I use the 5G phones but for 4G I use a single Alcatel HH71 (Cat 7) and more recently a Zyxel NR5103E (excellent but big) but these are not really suited for general van use as they cannot be mounted high in van roof for their reception and be unintrusive.

In addition to tablet etc I have my personal iPhone 13 which can connect with the van WIFI. I also have an old iPhone SE on the dash with its own SIM (low data plan) on the dash to stream (radio and music) and for GPS. If a mobile signal feeding the van is lost the van WIFI will still be present so to provide resilience whilst on the road I use Speedify software so the switching between the van WIFI and the internal phone SIM is instantaneous. Breaks in streaming are very rare.

The combinations are endless. You can of course go and buy a single unit to do it all, but I always set myself a budget for a solution.

I steer clear of cheap 4G Cat4 stuff now (other than what I have already) as these are too expensive for what they are and less likely to get the best from a mast now. Hence use of Cat 7 MIFI which are about £30 on eBay and easily unlocked. Will use 5G modems when cost/availability comes.

If you are to be parking in very remote car parking areas, you are very likely to have no signal and may be on shared masts at others. Satellite is probably your only option. Cheaper options are on the horizon but for now it is an expensive investment and £50 per month. Yes, you will probably need a generator for prolonged visits (assume you will have solar panel).


Edit: Just thought. You also need to carry a WIFI device you can put into Client/Wisp mode as some locations may have WIFI pubs/villages/camp sites.
Blown away by the effort you've put into this reply, thank you so much.

First off - I won't lie, I'm a total newbie with these things, so please bare with me!

For the initial questions:
I intend to be as off-grid as possible in remote locations in Brecons/Snowdonia and the Scottish Highlands, which I think will be the biggest challenges.

I rarely need to do video calls, but that's about the most strenuous activity that I need to undertake at any time. Given how rare they are, I could likely just travel to somewhere convenient and plan around it.

I'd say on a daily basis, around 5MBit download would probably be adequate, upload doesn't generally matter an awful lot.

As for networks, do you have any experience with the likes of Smarty (Three) Voxi (Vodafone) Giffgaff (o2), etc? They all provide non-contract deals which can be canceled at any time. I'm just not sure whether they could also be re-activated afterward, a bit like Starlink, where you can pause the service and its costs if/when you're not using it. Ideally, this would be perfect - this way I could use the useful site you provided if I'm likely to be staying in an area well-covered by a certain network for a while, I could simply activate it for that month?

"In rural Wales some locations only had O2 and this could be 3G." I have to admit this part does make me lean toward Starlink again!

Admittedly, I'm in a converted van (metal issues!) which is why I thought the antenna would be the best choice. It seems to be very common for others to have used a router with an external antenna.

My initial hope was to find something along the lines of a Huawei router with a Poynting "puck" style antenna that could simply be positioned on the roof and not too much of a faff, but based on what you're saying I'm guessing you wouldn't recommend this?

Would a MiFi device on an adjustable mast in a tupperware box with some vent holes in be a much cheaper alternative and somewhat weatherproof?

As for routers, I have heard great things about the Teletonika ones, which seem to have the dual sim you speak of. Do you have any experience with these? Are they worth the extra cost over the cheaper MiFi devices you commonly use?

The Netgear M1 seems to be the "common" choice - but at £280 for the router alone, I can't really see why it's SO much more unless I'm missing something.

I also have an old Samsung Galaxy S9 which I could potentially use as a hotspot.

A bit confused and overwhelmed by all the options without really understanding which is going to be the most beneficial to my situation, haha. I hope you can help!

At the moment, I am leaning towards a cheap 4G setup for convenience during travel and when I don't want any added faff, but potentially with Starlink on-board in the cases where I really want to stay somewhere, but simply can't get signal. This might seem excessive, but it's more down to not really having any idea how often this scenario will occur, and since Starlink can be cancelled/activated whenever (as long as I do so at the right time) it's only really the hardware cost to consider, which seems to hold its value quite well by my understanding.
 
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The newer Starlink terminals consume a lot less power than the older ones (about 35W compared to 100W) but still much more than a 5G AP (about 5W), if this matters to you.

If you want to use it on a camper van you'll also need the more expensive "Starlink for RVs" which is £460 + £95/month -- and this does allow use while in motion, as well as being more suitable for roof mounting.


You still need a reasonable clear-sky view though, but that should be the case in most places you're likely to park a van -- except under trees...
That's great to know regarding the power consumption, thank you.
 
Having spent some time trialing different Set Ups with a friend who is looking at decent Internet Access in the Middle of nowhere, He is now trialing and using Starlink, over other methods, but personally I believe he would have been better off on some of the 4G / 5G Trials we did, maybe I didn't push Him in that direction enough.

Couple of things to consider, although Starlink does do what it says on the tin, there is always the Intial Set Up to do for each location, the overhead restrictions and the Weather to contend with, the Speeds are ok but the Price is a bit challenging, its worth bearing in mind that what you pay per month for Starlink you could probably justifly paying for 4 x Sims per month for All of the UK Networks.

Another option is to look at is something like Glocalme Cloud Sim, although it more of a Global Solution, the Idea is it will automatically choose and connect to the Best Network in each Location (That's their claim), whether the Best Network is Best Signal or Best Speed, yet to find out.

I current got the Numan U5 5G Mobile WiFi Router which Im about to Trail and Evaulate for another Boat Traverler, which is a Portable model that Glocalme recommend, one of the benifits of the Unit is you can use the GlocalMe Cloud Sim or you can insert a normal Network SIM and or choose between the two. Aperantly the Numan Device(s) can connect to a Starlink setup, again yet to find out.

Another fantastic reply, thanks a lot.

Can I ask why you think he'd be better off with some of the 4G/5G options now that he's using it? Besides initial setup (a couple of minutes) and weather, which doesn't seem to be a major issue as far as I know? The dish even clears snow.

Admittedly, the price isn't great, but I'd hate to pay for 4-5 sims and hardly use most of them at all, with still no guarantees of coverage in certain areas.

With Glocalme, is it just me, or are their prices going to add up to insane amounts of money for relatively high data usage? All their plans seem to talk about the likes of "1.10GB", but I may be missing something here?

The device you mentioned is OOS, but would love to know more regarding higher data use of 200-500GB/month. Thank you.
 
I grew up on the Thames and lived on a boat for about 1/2 of my adult life. When I bought my first boat I used to use a Nokia which I tethered to my Pentium 3 laptop for GPRS speed - almost as fast as dialup! Yes, I am that old. :)

Having looked at Starlink I would not want to take the plunge at the minute. My feeling is Elon Musk has rather over-committed himself and his vanity projects (like this one) may not get the investment it needs to work well. I'd hate to make an investment in equipment I couldn't use for some other network and be stuck with something that was useless.

My understanding is the problem with satellite Internet has always been that the network slows down depending on the number of other users and adding extra capacity costs a massive amount of extra money. How many Starlink packages will he sell? Will more satellites be launched to keep up with the number of packages sold?

Also 35w is very high compared to a 4G/5G device with a battery. It is all extra batteries, which is all extra weight, which is all extra fuel consumption. With a phone and mobile, you can charge the batteries as you drive then rely on your device's battery when you stop (when you're using your device!). Charging a 4g router makes no difference at all when you think about the output from your van's alternator. The Starlink system appears not to have its own battery - that means you are draining your batteries whenever you're parked, which means more solar panels and batteries. All more stuff to go wrong.

Everything that makes your vehicle more hassle is a bad idea.
Elon is proving to be a complicated chap! But, I do think it's here to stay now to be honest. You make a valid point though. I wouldn't be surprised if he decided to sack it off tomorrow.

As stated in the other comments, I really can't ever see there being a huge traffic congestion issue in the UK, there's simply not as much need for it for everyday users here as there are in the likes of the US.

35W is admittedly high, along with the inconvenience of the fancy, bulky dish. I do think as an occasional backup plan when 4G isn't proving its worth, it'll be good to have.

I currently have solar/lithium/B2B charger, but admittedly, when you're in the deep dark areas of Wales/Scotland during the winter months, you really need the engine running or to be driving to make the most of that setup.
 
I think that won't be as much of a problem in the UK as it is in other places because there are less users using the service. We just don't have the vast areas with poor or no service at all that countries like Australia or the US have.

Smaller countries/places without much need for fast satellite internet actually have an advantage here. As SpaceX keeps adding capacity because other places need it, we get more than we need (their satellites are in low earth orbit, so they keep moving). And because of the orbit of most of their satellites, the are always multiple above the UK (not the case in other latitudes):

w2ZGm0c.png


Compare this to a place like Texas:

2wMP8Qj.png


(from: https://satellitemap.space/ )

I don't know if Starlink is the best option in this case, by the way. I just don't think we'll have the capacity problems other places might have or that the complaints from users in other regions necessary apply to the UK.

-----

Edit just to add that the point about areas with more satellites depends on the orbits used by the provider. What I wrote is valid for Starlink's current constellation, but a service like OneWeb would be different as they're using a polar orbit (not sure if it's the correct name), so they "accumulate" more above the poles:

iA8NfbV.png
Very useful and informative, thank you.
 
According to the UK government, stable internet is 95% chance of getting a download speed of at least 2Mbit/s.

To that end a dual SIM router with at minimum cat6 modem would be the cheapest option.

Would it be any good, the biggest waste of upload bandwidth is DNS requests, if you had a local DNS server running pihole or Adguard home to remove the constant advertising you will have a better service.
Thank you.


Would something like this fit the bill, just to get a rough idea of what is required?

Admittedly, it's not dual sim, but I can't seem to find anything that's dual sim and above Cat 4 without getting to big money. If you have any ideas I'd certainly consider those.
 
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As for going the StarLink route, it would depend how remote you're going to be. One of the Govt trial areas is Snowdonia particular for all the issue experienced there. I remember 5 years ago I stayed overnight at a hotel near Cadir Idris and climbed it the next day. The only Internet connectivity was at the hotel. There was no mobile reception in a lot of places and never any data. Might have changed since. This would lead back to Starlink option - depending on what power options you have in you van and running it off grid.
 
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