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Legality Concerns Could Hinder Phorm's ISP Advertising Deal

NewsreadeR

Regular Member
As I recall, Sky did make some changes to their privacy policy a few months ago that I was less than happy about, I'm now wondering if it was because they are considering phorm. Also their response to the register was rather worrying http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/29/phorm_broadband_isp_targets/


I'd hope Sky would be less inclined to adopt phorm than BT, because some customers would cancel their Sky TV service as well as their ADSL.

I suppose given Sky's prices, if they did decide to adopt Phorm, it might be worth investigating if an encrypted proxy based service is available from a trustworthy company, which other than migrating, seems to be the only way to avoid being spied on.
afaik It was because they changed email to Google.

If they adopt Phorm I am out of there.
 

Mel

ULTIMATE Member
afaik It was because they changed email to Google.

If they adopt Phorm I am out of there.
Ah, yes, I guess I'm getting paranoid. Although it is hardly surprising, I'm still astounded that BT have been testing this.

Still if I was running an ISP I wouldn't want to leave any doubt that this would never be deployed on my network, especially with Phorm implying that all ISPs will want to implement this.

Besides a "is your current ISP spying on you, we don't" advertising campaign could be good for business.
 

PhormUKtechteam

Casual Member
Hi all

@ Newsreader - apologies for the delays - getting around to all of these fora and putting up answers, or just getting the questions over to Phorm takes time. You asked for a transcript of the chat - see below. Another webchat is planned for early this week.
Hope this helps and if you have anyu firther queries, post them up and will get them answered as soon as poss.


m4rk(Q) Hi Kent, how do I stop my browsing habits from being sent to Phorm's servers by my ISP?
KentErtugrul(A) Webwise is explicitly desined to make it posible for anybody to easily opt out. Not only will the first thing you see be a window offering you a choice as to whether or not to participate, you will be reminded periodically as you browse through the ad slots inside the websites that you browse, that Webwise is on / off. You will then be able, simply by clicking on any of the ads, to opt in or out. Once launched, Webwise will offer users an unprecedented level of transparency in freely chosing at any time whether or not to participate
KentErtugrul(P) Apologies for my poor typing at speed by the way
wg(Q) My Question:- why is the IT community up in arms over Phorm, when they seem quite happy to use Google, knowing full well that Google uses the searchs to delivery contextual adds, AND have Google store the data for a year.
KentErtugrul(A) Good question - I firmly believe tht if people undersood better what we are doing, they would welcome what we are doing as a giant step forward in data storage, privacy and transparency
guest(Q) Are we opting out of the ad system of of the actual IP packets from touching 3party systems (ie yours) within the ISP domain?
MBurgess(A) Both. When you opt out, your browsing information is not passed to Phorm, and as a result, you won't see any targeted ads. However, the websites you view won't stop showing you ads - they will just be untargeted.
Dephormation.org.uk(Q) Will details of my HTTP activity be sent to Phorm, even if I opt out? A cookie is merely a request for your co-operation, not an opt out mechanism.
MBurgess(A) No, your browsing behaviour will not be sent to Phorm if you opt out. If you are looking for an opt-out mechanism that doesn't rely on the presence of a cookie, you can set your browser (Firefox, IE and Opera) to block cookies from our ad-serving domain, webwise.net.
Jim_Murray(Q) What is Phorm's response to the opinion of Professor Sommer (LSE) that the implementation of this technology as proposed by some ISP's may breach RIPA legisaltion?
KentErtugrul(A) Firstly, we do not believe that Professor Summer has a full understanding of how our system works. We have offered to walk him through it and would welcome the opportunity to do so, just as we have any number of reglatory authorities, including the Home Office which is responsible for the appllication of RIPA. Secondly, you should be aware that we have spent an enormous amount of time, as have our ISP partners, verifying that all of our activities are fully compliant with all regulation. I believe that it is reasonable to suggest that if BT, Virgin and Carphone Warehouse are all participating, it is because they have fully satisfied themselves of the legality of their decision.
Dephormation.org.uk(Q) Will Phorm be able to profile the http requests used by web services/SOAP commonly used by applications like iTunes, Windows Media Player, Google Earth, remote desktop, and instant messaging clients?
MBurgess(A) No, prior to the Phorm analysis, the system checks the HTTP user-agent header and ignores any requests that are not from a whitelist of supported browser types (Firefox, Opera, IE).
 

PhormUKtechteam

Casual Member
Second part..
TheObserver(Q) So if you opt out your data never touches a Phorm server? This is at odds with much coverage, which suggests the data still goes to your server but you discard it if the opt-out cookie is present.
MBurgess(A) Yes. There is widespread misunderstanding of how the system works, which is why we are keen to set the record straight...
Jim_Murray(Q) Further, how do you respond to the statement by Professor Anderson (Cambridge University) in a This is Money article that 'if you care about your privacy, do not use BT, Virgin or Talk Talk'?
KentErtugrul(A) I believe that given the chance to fully understand our technology, Professor Anderson will reach the same conclusion as Privacy International, Ernst and Young and any number of key privacy stakeholders, that Phorm represents a major breakthrough in online privacy. There is no online participant today which manages to generate such a level of relevance in advertising while simultaneously maintaining complete anonymity, no storage whatsoever of browsing history and such a transaprency as to choice of participation. If you look at your browser right now, you will see that perhaps hundreds of cookies have traked your activity online. You never gave permission for any of that, they all store where you have been and shutting off cookies makes the internet basically unusable. Wold it not be better to have something far more useful from an advertiser's perspective, which stores no data at all as to browsing history and for the first time gives users a clear and readily accessible on / off switch?
Dephormation.org.uk(Q) Will the 'opt out' cookie expire? Why? After what time period? If I flush my cookies, will I need to 'opt-out' again?
MBurgess(A) The opt-out cookie expires after two years. Why? Two years is a LONG TIME on the Internet! Seriously though, we would consider extending the lifetime if you think it's a big issue ... Yes, if you delete your cookies, you would need to opt out again, unless you block cookies from webwise.net, in which case you will be opted out permanently.
Dephormation.org.uk(Q) If I use a web mail or forum application, like HotMail, Slashdot, Yahoo Groups, or Virgin Webmail, will Phorm be able to see/use the contents of the emails/messages I read?
MBurgess(A) No, we don't analyse the content of webmail sites.
Jim_Murray(Q) Mr Burgess stated that 'if you opt out, your browsing information is not passed to Phorm'. Does this mean that should a user opt out of the Phorm system no equipment belonging to Phorm will ever see any data? If so, how is the decision made as, being cookie bases, some interception must occur in order to make that decision.
MBurgess(A) The ISP controls whether the browsing data is passed to Phorm. Its systems check for the presence of the cookie.
fieldmouse(Q) I don't want to be bombarded with more advertising
KentErtugrul(A) Nobody wants to be bombarded with ads. In fact if you want to reduce the amount of advertising you see,Webwise is probably the best thing to come along. The reason is simple: you get bombarded with ads because advertisers today have no idea of the interests of the people to whom they are advertising. So the only way they can get any cmpaign to work is to throw hundreds of ads at you to see what sticks. It is a terrible system. It wastes your time and attention and wastes their money, whilst generating minimal revenue for only a few websites. If advertisers were aware of the product categories which interested veiwerss, the net result wold be far less advertising.
m4rk(Q) If you are so open about how your system works, why don't you simply publish the information on your website so that your detractors can inspect it?
MBurgess(A) We are going to update the website with more detailed information about how the system works for precisely that reason. Watch this space ...
guest(Q) btw you are answering without too much marketing speak, which should be commended
KentErtugrul(A) Thank you. Nice comments welcomed :)
Dephormation.org.uk(Q) Will any data gathered be sent to China or the USA? Why isn't it processed in the UK?
MBurgess(A) Browsing data is ONLY processed within the UK ISP's network. It is not sent to China or anywhere else.
Dephormation.org.uk(Q) Will the Virgin Phorm UID also cookie be encrypted? (the BT Phorm UID is). If Phorm were as open and transparent as you claim, this UID should not need to be encrypted.
MBurgess(A) The UID is not encrypted: it is a randomly generated binary string that contains no information, but is just used to guarantee uniqueness. You're unique!
AnthonyL(Q) who are the advertisers that work with Phorm?
KentErtugrul(A) Advertisers generally have applauded the introduction of Phorm, which transforms their ability to only show ads to people who are interested in their products, thereby making their marketing budgets much more effective
 

PhormUKtechteam

Casual Member
And third..
Jim_Murray(Q) Could Mr Burgess clarify exactly what he is considering to be a Phorm server? At present there does not seem to be a clear understanding of where, exactly the decision to process or not to porcess information is made and what information from the page is available at that point>
MBurgess(A) We're going to show the demarcation in the new detailed description on the website so that you can see what we mean. Sorry you've had to wait for this.
m4rk(Q) Is it true that phorm intercepts and modifies the response to every single web page I view?
MBurgess(A) No, we do not modify pages at all.
Chroma(Q) How vulnerable is the system to external parties? by that i mean, how concievable is it for a criminal organisation to effectively hijack the hardware and modify the code to gain details on peoples information?
MBurgess(A) Obviously we are very concerned about security, and we have precautions against compromise occurring, and monitoring to detect attempts. It's worth remembering though, that we don't have personal data or clickstream history stored in the same way as Google or AOL, so accidental or malicious disclosure is impossible.
phkphorm(Q) MBurgess - why do we need to be "unique" if Phorm have no interest in tracking who we are?
MBurgess(A) We do not know and cannot know who you are. But to deliver relevant material to you, we need to distinguish your browser from the millions of others on the net.
Ksg(Q) How does Phorm advantage us as a user?
KentErtugrul(A) Good question with several answers. Webwise brings the following benefits to users: 1) Reduces the amount of irrelevant advertising which you see as you browse 2) Long term, reduces the amount of advertising which you see altogether 3) Dramatically enhances the landscape of online privacy by introduding, for the first time, a system which is completely anonymous, keeps no record of where you ahev been or what you have searched for and gives you a clear and transparent on/ off switch 4) Makes many more of the websites which you visit much more profitable, making the internet a more vibrant, interesting and relevant place to be 5) Protects you from online fraud without having to download software, switch it on or update it. Remember that the most likely victims of phishing attacks are the least likely to to have taken the necessary steps to protect themselves 6) Allows ISPs to give you a better quality internet 7) Creates a "Google while browsing" web experience 8) Creates many other additional opportunities which we will be presenting in the future, each of which is very beneficial and each of which, like webwise, will always be an open choice on the part of users as to whether or not to embrace
narcosis(Q) What sort of impact will the scanning & tagging of http traffic have on response times during peak surfing times ?
MBurgess(A) Pages are not tagged (or modified), and the keyword analysis process is offline so it can't affect response times. The ISPs are very concerned not to interfere with users' browsing experience.
Huw_Jerse(Q) Isn't the truth of the opt-out versus opt-in not that no-one would opt in if allowed an informed free choice?
KentErtugrul(A) The reality is that extensive market research was conducted by the ISPs prior to launching webwise. Although many of the commentators in this forum represent a somwhat self-selected group of people whose reaction is negative, the overwhelming majority of people responded extremely positively to a safer, more relevant internet free of charge. Why not give it to them? Similarly, how would you explain to the victim of a phishing attack that you could have protected them automatically but did not?
fred_Blogs(Q) Whist Phorm's own system is detached from the ISP traffic surely the insertion of additional data (adverts) into a traffic stream is a prima face case of a breach of RIPA by the ISP involved?
KentErtugrul(A) Just to clarify: we do not serve adverts into the traffic stream. The websites within which the ads appear are in fact our partners. They choose to partner with us to bring you more helpful, relevant and yes, more valuable advertising
guest(Q) Having a system that provides a form of customised marketing is one thing. But do you understand the real concern shown here and on other sites for what browsing information (or interet connection info, MAC address, IP address, ISP account info) is used or stored in order to provide this service?
MBurgess(A) Yes, we do understand people's privacy concerns. That's why do NOT tie into the ISP authentication systems, don't use MAC addresses and don't store IP addresses. It's important to understand that our system uses page information to make a real-time match against advertiser categories (e.g. sport). We only store the category, not the browsing information, so we can't tell where you've been on the internet, or what the page contained.
r2d2d3d4d5(Q) is any data sent abroad. for example the analysis of the anonymized users behaviour.
MBurgess(A) No, browsing data is only processed within the UK ISP network.
bob(Q) Will this still work if I already block all adverts by default?
MBurgess(A) If you block all ads, then you'll block ours too!
Annon101(Q) Will the duplication of pages to the Phorm server count towards any Traffic Management cap the ISP may have?
MBurgess(A) No, this is internal to the ISP infrastructure and won't affect your account.
narcosis(Q) It would seem that the biggest issue so far is with the opt out feature. Can you please tell us, if opted out, will ANY data pass through ANY server owned by Phorm either within the ISP network or not ? If it does then why if we have opted out ?
MBurgess(A) No, if you opt out, none of your data will pass through a Phorm-owned server.
Dephormation.org.uk(Q) Will Phorm be able to profile HTTP requests for content such as external images embedded in HTML email I view in an email client such as Outlook?
MBurgess(A) No, non-html content cannot be parsed.
Dephormation.org.uk(Q) Please explain more about Kents links with Context Plus, Apropos, and PeopleOnPage. Why have these 'services' ceased?
KentErtugrul(A) We have never denied that we were in the adware business. Such a business is involved in the legitmate bundling of adserving technology with free sowftare applications willingly and knowingly downloaded by users. It is the very fact that people were always unable to distinguish between legitimate adware and illegitimate spyware that caused us to do something unprecedented: As the only publicly traded adware company, listed on the London Stock Exchange with Fidelity and a series of other blue chip shareholders and the former chairman of Microsoft UK as our Chairman, we unilaterally discontinued our entire revenue stream, concluding that the spyware association was inconsistent with our long term goals. This history is entirely a matter of public record which can be found on the london stock exchange's website
Jim_Murray(Q) On a similar note I would also like to thank both Mr Ertugrul and Mr Burgess for answering questions directly and without attempting to 'spin' the answers.
MBurgess(A) Thanks for giving us a chance to explain to you directly, I think it's better than the rumour mill... but I have to admit it's been a typing marathon!
TH(Q) It seems to me that by funnelling all HTTP traffic through phorms servers, you are introducing a massive bottleneck and single point of failure into the system; how confident are you that you your systems won't degrade performance when being used by 1000's of users at the same time?
MBurgess(A) Our systems are designed to integrate with the ISP networks and work with the existing aggregation points within those networks. They are also designed to be failsafe and specifically not to degrade the user experience even under heavy load. The ISPs are very protective of their networks ...
BogoBunny(Q) How employees does webwise / phorm have and where are they located?
KentErtugrul(A) This is a matter of public record. We are a listed company with approximately 150 employees, with offices in London and New York. On our board of directors is the former Chairman / CEO of ATT, the current Vice-Chairman of Rothschild bank, the former president of the Coca-Cola company worldwide, the former head of strategy of ATT. Our executive team represents a "who's who" of stars from the internet and media industries: a founding member of Doubleclick, the former Head of technology of Atlas, the former CTO of BT retail, the former head of sales of Expedia, the former head of communications of Yahoo Europe, and so on. We are about as far away from the dark shadowy company portrayed by some of the blogs as it is possible for a company to be
narcosis(Q) If the keyword analysis process is offline then in order to scan for keywords would you not have to have a copy of webpage in order to analyze it offline ?
MBurgess(A) Yes, a mirrored copy is analyzed.
revchips(Q) how is it envisaged that an opt out will be presented?
KentErtugrul(A) The first thing which you will see will be a full size page offering you the opprtunity not to participate. You will then be reminded of the ability to switch off at any point inside the ad slots which you see as you browse. It is critical to both ourselves and the ISPs that users ALWAYS be aware of the fact that Webwise is a choice
PaulB(Q) I agree roumour mill is dangerous. I think Phorm need to disclose all network information about how it works etc. Be very transparent. The feeling I get from Kent and MBurgess is that the system is very open, so why not be open with the public about it
 

Old dude

ULTIMATE Member
How exactly does this random number link to a person in order to give the targetted advertising?

It must have some sort of identifier, such as IP address.
 

Kits

Super Moderator
Staff member
ISPreview Team
Just to point out to everyone ¨PhormUKtechteam¨ is apparently a PR man (team?) working for Phorm, so should be treated like any professional ¨spin doctor¨ - http://www.badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?541 . :hrmph:
This is true they are a companyn that makes new launches look appealing to the unwary and pump up PR for companies.

This was posted on another forum as where they are from so not really tech team as we expect tech team to mean since they don't know how it works just give out information they are given from the company.

If you want to avoid having this you can send a letter to your ISP telling them you dont agree to this. This is what customers of VM are sending you can copy the basic letter but address to your ISP either talktalk or BT but you need to have the address for DPA at the company or it will be lost in transit around the company.
Thanks for this letter to Rob a moderator on another forum.
Group Compliance
Virgin Media
160 Great Portland Street
London
W1W 5QA


Dear Sirs

Subscriber Privacy: Virgin Media & Phorm

I read with some disgust and alarm of the proposed tie up between Virgin Media & Phorm. This apparently, somehow, involves the disclosure by Virgin Media, to a third party (Phorm) of my web browsing habits, supposedly for marketing purposes.

I am not clear how exactly this works, and frankly am not interested in the technology. I am concerned about my privacy, which I expect you to reasonably protect.

I can find nothing in Virgin Media’s stated privacy policies, terms and conditions or service, or indeed anywhere else that permits Virgin Media to disclose my browsing habits or indeed any personal information to third parties, other than as specifically required by law. Indeed, until recently, there were clauses in the Acceptable Use Policy which indicated that as my ISP you did not even monitor how I used my services. That seems to have been insidiously dropped. Perhaps you can explain how, in view of your policies Virgin Media can now disclose my information without my specific consent?

My interpretation of guidance from the Information Commissioners Office, and elsewhere is that this advertising system would be an electronic transmission and thus requires me to specifically opt in. I hereby confirm I do not opt in. Indeed it should not be necessary for me to even have to spell this out to Virgin Media.

I also note it might be the intention of Virgin Media and / or Phorm to operate an “opt out” system which relies on cookies placed on a users computer. Such a practice is flawed. I am not obliged to retain on my computer any means of storage of information of my preferences, which may be used by others. Please see the Information Commissioner’s Office: Guidance on the Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) Regulations 2003, Part 2, section 2.2. Thus reliance on a cookie to prevent transmission of my browsing habits to Phorm via Virgin Media, or simply to prevent me seeing their served up electronic ads breaches these rules. I confirm I do not give consent for such a cookie to be placed on my computer. Thus Virgin Media, if they persist with this ill-advised scheme, must find another method of securing my privacy.

For the avoidance of doubt, I do not consent to my browsing habits, or indeed any other personal data being disclosed to third parties, or even other Virgin Group companies. This applies to any marketing or other purposes that are not directly associated with the supply of the services I have contracted to receive.

At best this smacks of sharp practice in order to prop up Virgin Media’s poor balance sheet. At worst, this whole thing is probably illegal.

Yours faithfully
This is also an interesting read. http://www.politicalpenguin.org.uk/blog/p,295/
 
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Mel

ULTIMATE Member
Would the Phorm PR man care to confirm this is a Phorm related patent application. http://www.freshpatents.com/Targeted-advertising-system-and-method-dt20060921ptan20060212353.php?type=description

The Javascript examples in the patent application have some distinctive variable name... and if you google for some of them eg "zd47f5c1333_ps"

You obtain a forum thread by a website developer about a corrupted (javascript infected) website, that I posted about earlier http://www.ispreview.co.uk/talk/showpost.php?p=199100&postcount=42

And a story about spyware here:- http://www.benedelman.org/spyware/images/claria-venus123-log-101705.html

(and of course the phorm(?) patent)


Now the script from the corrupted website links to ntp.sysip.net/tag/2.js which contained a reference to "dns.sysip.net" which may be familiar to people who read the story about the BT customer who seems to have been an unwilling Phorm beta-tester.



Searching for "ntp.sysip.net/tag/2.js" turns up a number of corrupted forum posts - eg look at the javascript in the posts by "dayglo jim" http://www.bikegirl.co.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2418&PN=1

EDIT: other example here:- http://www.pwcforums.co.uk/wiz/forum_posts.asp?TID=10314&PN=1

and

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=32496
< ="text/"> < ="text/" ="http://ntp.sysip.net/tag/2.js">< ="text/" ="http://ntp.sysip.net/ps/I.ETHOS.LIVE/main.js?pc=I.ETHOS.LIVE&size=tadd,none">< ="http://dns.sysip.net/services/nslookup?app=PS&v=1.2.15.1&site=I.ETHOS.LIVE&size=&rnd=5111692&referer-kww=mexico%20good%20american%20series%20instruments%207,fender%20ic%20series%20jazz%20bass%207,post%20reply%206,instruments%20expensive%20instruments%204,good%20aswell%202,playability%20%202,affordable%20made%20mexico%202,edit%201,message%201,models%201&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.progarchives.com%2Fforum%2Fnew_reply_.asp%3FM%3DQ%26PID%3D2312071%26PN%3D1%26TR&xinfopsid=0&at=js&xinfops=http%3A%2F%2Fntp.sysip.net%2Fps%2FI.ETHOS.LIVE%2F">

Is all this corruption the result of Phorm testing, or was it the result of spyware that Phorm was perhaps based on?
 
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Kits

Super Moderator
Staff member
ISPreview Team
Hi all
Phorm will be hosting another live webchat with the CEO and CIO tonight at 20.30 UK time - again the URL is http://www.webwise.com/chat
Thanks
PhormUKPRTeam
Another PR stunt will he answer the questions raised by the customers of the ISPs who signed up wth them like making it an OPT-IN not out?

Why the patent he has applied for covers more than he is saying Phorm will log?

Why they are trying to sell this as prtection for customers when all it is for is harvesting customers browsing an search hbits to farm informaton then sell it to companies who sign up to his advertising deals?

Who will control the scripts that will be used to update this in the coming months, year?

Can we trust a company with such a past record as theirs?

MPO the stock shares should drop to 0 and the ISPs refuse to run this unless it is opt-in and anyone who doesn't opt in Phorm has no right to place any cookie on the members pc.

This is only trying to brainwash the users into acepting spyware and force fed adverts which maynot be the best deals around only the ones that are on the OIX program I dont use Google since they are never the best deal.
 

PhormUKtechteam

Casual Member
With reference to the allegations of spyware. Webwise is not spyware. When it was called PeopleOnPage, Phorm was involved in the adware business, not spyware. We fully stand by everything we did in the adware business, but it became clear to us it was impossible for people to distinguish adware from spyware. The company then took the unprecedented step of voluntarily shutting down the download business model - worth $5-6 million a year to the business. Instead we decided to concentrate on our ISP strategy of providing more relevant ads and higher levels of user privacy. We announced this move away from the old model to the ISP strategy transparently to the market.
 

Kits

Super Moderator
Staff member
ISPreview Team
Maybe Phorm will answer these questions

Taken from another forum where you frequent but hasn't had replies.


Below is a post from the spy forum (bigbadcol) aka (bubblehelp)

I am sick of Phorm and the misleading spin they are placing on this. As the patent application clearly shows . Too many lies have been told by phorm and the PR team. All of which can be proved to be deception to the community.

http://www.freshpatents.com/Targeted-advertising-system-and-method-dt20060921ptan20060212353.php?type=claims

for example

"where the script is configured to set a cookie in the browser, and where the cookie contains at least a portion of the browsing information. "

A COOKIE CAN BE TRACKED. IT IS STORING PERSONAL BROWSING INFORMATION. You lie Phorm

"Context reader 40 is not limited to acquiring keyword or other contextual information pertaining to a given web page. Indeed, the browsing information may be collected so as to also include historical data pertaining to the browsing performed "

Again Phorm have been lying. The truthe of the matter is in the patent.

"Based on analysis occurring at the proxy server, the proxy server may modify client-requested data it receives so that a targeted advertisement appears on a web page requested by a client"

So you are changing the data stream Changing the requested data. Lie number 3 Phorm.

SPIN AND MORE SPIN WILL NOT CHANGE THE FACT OF THE PATENT APPLICATION.

And you say you dont collect personal data do you. Er this is what your patent says

"As explained above, the context reader may be configured to more than just keyword and other contextual data pertaining to a given web page. The context reader may also include behavioral data (e.g, browsing behavior), other historical data collected over time, demographic data associated with the user, IP address, URL data, etc."

Note the section

"The context reader may also include behavioral data (e.g, browsing behavior), other historical data collected over time, demographic data associated with the user, IP address, URL data, etc."

Er whats that you say -"you dont collect IP addresses. Your patent says... YOU DO.
Care to get the correct answers now or are Phorm paying your company so much to try and prove he is a reformed person, all information on the internet seems to point to Phorm not telling you the whole truth about the product and seems your company didn't do any of its own research into the product. MPO barge pole isn't long enough to keep this companny away I wiull be moving ISPs as soon as VM admit this wil definately be going ahead to a smaller ISP that has already confirmed they have no intentions of jumping in bed with Phorm.
 

timeless

ULTIMATE Member
Staff member
Volunteer Mod
With reference to the allegations of spyware. Webwise is not spyware. When it was called PeopleOnPage, Phorm was involved in the adware business, not spyware. We fully stand by everything we did in the adware business, but it became clear to us it was impossible for people to distinguish adware from spyware. The company then took the unprecedented step of voluntarily shutting down the download business model - worth $5-6 million a year to the business. Instead we decided to concentrate on our ISP strategy of providing more relevant ads and higher levels of user privacy. We announced this move away from the old model to the ISP strategy transparently to the market.
sorry l just fell off my chair, you keep on saying how much things arnt spyware, however what you are doing is SPYING on users, regardless of what you want to call it you are still using what l would consider calling "tracking cookies" therefore when we browse you are interacting with that cookie and are gaining information about us...

therefore its a form of spyware, there no way it can be argued any different... on another note is it legal to actually do something like this without customer consent? l mean fine websites do it but an ISP its completely different, in BTs case if someone did something about those shareholders they wouldnt have so many money problems (they make enough now but l guess those shareholders havent squeezed enough millions out yet)
 

Mel

ULTIMATE Member
With reference to the allegations of spyware. Webwise is not spyware. When it was called PeopleOnPage, Phorm was involved in the adware business, not spyware. We fully stand by everything we did in the adware business, but it became clear to us it was impossible for people to distinguish adware from spyware. The company then took the unprecedented step of voluntarily shutting down the download business model - worth $5-6 million a year to the business. Instead we decided to concentrate on our ISP strategy of providing more relevant ads and higher levels of user privacy. We announced this move away from the old model to the ISP strategy transparently to the market.
You mean YOUR definitions of adware and Spyware are at variance with everyone elses?

I for one do consider any system or softwares that analyses my private data for advertising purposes, or spies on my internet usage as spyware.

One problem of such wares is that it can break various applications and if it modifies webpages, corrupt the existing web page code.

The previous example of a corrupted forum post appears to contain a list of key words or targeted catagories that were supposed to have been sent to http://dns.sysip.net/ but in fact leaked out into the forum post for everyone to read .

< ="text/"> < ="text/" ="http://ntp.sysip.net/tag/2.js">< ="text/" ="http://ntp.sysip.net/ps/I.ETHOS.LIVE/main.js?pc=I.ETHOS.LIVE&size=tadd,none">< ="http://dns.sysip.net/services/nslookup?app=PS&v=1.2.15.1&site=I.ETHOS.LIVE&size= &rnd=5111692&referer-kww=mexico%20good%20american%20series%20instrument s%207,fender%20ic%20series%20jazz%20bass%207,post% 20reply%206,instruments%20expensive%20instruments% 204,good%20aswell%202,playability%20%202,affordabl e%20made%20mexico%202,edit%201,message%201,models% 201&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.progarchives.com%2Ffo rum%2Fnew_reply_.asp%3FM%3DQ%26PID%3D2312071%26PN% 3D1%26TR&xinfopsid=0&at=js&xinfops=http%3A%2F%2Fnt p.sysip.net%2Fps%2FI.ETHOS.LIVE%2F">

(%20 is a space)
 

Mel

ULTIMATE Member
If this systerm is deemed to be legal, I suppose we'll eventually get similar treatment for our telephone conversations, with our telecom providers installing a voice recognition system to listen for key words to build a profile of our interests.

Instead of hearing the ring or engaged tone their system will play targeted adverts or even send targeted ads to our postal and email addresses where they have them.
 

NewsreadeR

Regular Member
Hi all

@ Newsreader - apologies for the delays - getting around to all of these fora and putting up answers, or just getting the questions over to Phorm takes time. You asked for a transcript of the chat - see below. Another webchat is planned for early this week.
Hope this helps and if you have anyu firther queries, post them up and will get them answered as soon as poss.
Thank you but the way that is formatted makes it pretty much impossible to read.

Now how about my question I also asked about a few posts previous?
 

timeless

ULTIMATE Member
Staff member
Volunteer Mod
no its not impossible to read.... more like their lawyers have reworded it so that is makes

SPYWARE

somehow legal and above board, next thing that will happen is the government will be requesting these logs and passing them to anit-P2P companies and also using similar methods to keep tabs on us... oooo l wonder how long it will take your lawyers to talk this INVASION of my online privacy out of court.
 

Kits

Super Moderator
Staff member
ISPreview Team
I surrender VM hasn't once publicly tried to allay any fears or speak to customers so order for BT line will go in end of month and I wil move to adsl Not BTs..
 
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