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London riots

Stupid riots!

And I heard a conversation of Vandals
'we can just break in'
'yeah'
'i hope that happens tomorrow'
'that would be good'
'well we just need to show te police we can do what we want which os what we did yesterday'
'yeah and its all thr governments fault anyway!'

APPARANTY its all the goverents fault NOW not the vandals!!! Well I agree there should have been more police before but...thee are now!
 
l dont agree with what the rioters are doing, but l do agree the government is to blame for the situation.. if police numbers had not been cut (and face further cuts) there would be allot more to deal with the unrest.

furthermore while there is alloy of youths out there l believe we are only seeing half the story.. the government are playing the adult population against the youths of today.. its common knowledge that most of the older generations see todays children as unruly and scum, children who are participating l feel are acting like they are being labelled purely because eventually labels stick, that coupled with it being the summer holidays l dont feel helps..

also the only thing we are being told is that its children who are doing the rioting, when l have friends who have seen the carnage who say just as many adults are participating, but l guess its ok to blame the younger generation.. granted the rioters have no excuse for what they are doing but equally if we are labelling a whole generation as yobs then we ought to have a system in place that teaches parents and educates both inside and outside the home the morals that they should grow up with.. after all if you label someone enough they will eventually become that regardless of how you teach them otherwise.
 
Certainly the government, or perhaps more directly the world banks and their inability to self-regulate adequate protection into the system that caused all this (has been going on for decades), must carry some of the blame.

However for me there's a difference between riots that cause damage but remain based upon a principal/cause and people who are literally just going out to use the chaos as a cover so that they can loot stores and ruin peoples' lives.

I support protests, in some cases it's even necessary to go a bit further, but extremely violent riots and criminality on the scale we're seeing is utterly unforgivable. Also attacking people in their homes.. that's not any kind of protest, it's just boderline terrorism. If there is a reason for all this then I've forgotten what it was because of the violence.
 
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The riots seem to me to be a cover for very cheap shopping. The rioters have no genuine grievance, but fancy a new telly or computer.
 
I think it's too complex to be able to actually pin a single reason on. Little factors like the fact that you're in trouble if you try and discipline kids these days, so they think they can get away with anything, come into it, of course, and I reckon there are so many of these individually minor-seeming things making up the whole that you can't point at a specific cause.

Also, some rioters seem to sometimes have different motives (and quite possibly wouldn't be able to tell you what those motives are if you asked them!) to others.
For example, while I'd largely agree with Chris that it's a massive free shopping spree (and that's partly because kids have come to expect that they're entitled to everything as a basic human right!), if that was all there was to it, why target a small florists in Ealing that isn't even in the main shops so might get "done" as a matter of routine? I know the place - it's not that much bigger than a garden shed, a little place on its own, before you cross the bridge at the west end of Haven Green to go into the main shops.
There's absolutely nothing in there of any interest to the kids - that's not a case of free shopping, it's just wanton destruction, more the mindset of the sort of juvenile scumbag who kicks someone's garden fence in just for the hell of it than of someone getting what they want without paying for it
 
Yes, but just to loot a store, come on! There are many shoplifters out there as it is generally, so why do a whole riot in London to bloody few items!???!! So, I mean, that can't be the reason the riot started?
 
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Certainly the government, or perhaps more directly the world banks and their inability to self-regulate adequate protection into the system that caused all this (has been going on for decades), must carry some of the blame.

However for me there's a difference between riots that cause damage but remain based upon a principal/cause and people who are literally just going out to use the chaos as a cover so that they can loot stores and ruin peoples' lives.

I support protests, in some cases it's even necessary to go a bit further, but extremely violent riots and criminality on the scale we're seeing is utterly unforgivable. Also attacking people in their homes.. that's not any kind of protest, it's just boderline terrorism. If there is a reason for all this then I've forgotten what it was because of the violence.

Personally i think those rioting are just as guilty (atleast technically) of the same crimes as those that run the country AND BOTH ARE DISGUSTING

The government and media with their statements its all young people are also utterly clueless and pushing that line for nothing more than to gain public favour (it seems to have worked for a few sheep of society who now continually spout and label youths as scum, which is really gonna help the situation eh???).

It is NOT just the young that are rioting, its all age groups from pre-teen all the way up to 30s-40s or even older. Of course the mainstream media doesnt show anyone in those older age groups though but would rather push the clips of a few youngsters in hoodies.

Frankly i think the whole situation is pathetic. I cant defend those that are rioting or those in charge of this country. Both are a bunch of criminals that dont want to pay for their gadgets and want to cost the innocent money.

Anyone thats heavily on the side of the Police and government should maybe take a step back and remember it wasnt that long ago a few that run the country were claiming tax payer cash for things like free Sky TV. The only differnce with the rioting is they have taken a more violent approach to get the same gadgets those in power wanted for free. I guess the only difference there is the youth (according to the press and government) are not trying to cover up what they are up to.

On the other hand you cant support violent scum either that are leaving innocent people without even a roof over their head.

Both "parties" involved in these incidents deserve not a single amount of respect. Both sides IMO appear to be a bunch of hypocrites that cant see further than the end of their noses to realise they are both nothing more than criminals technically.

As to what was "supposed" to have started it all and the person that was shot by the Police, it remains to be seen if they were right or wrong to open fire at them, although if they were wrong (as they have been in numerous incidents previously) then the Police IMO have no right to open their mouths about violence or crime........ You can not get much more violent or criminal than shooting a person wrongly. Nobody made them judge, jury and executioner.

On the other hand if they were right to open fire upon someone that was an imminent threat (and by that i mean along the lines of firing or waving his gun around not just carrying it). Then you have to congratulate the Police on protecting the public. Although the chances of that based on prior shootings by the Met. Police seem to be slim.

Bottom line either way you look at things is the country is an utter mess, with criminal (in a technical sense) thieves and murderers all the way from top to bottom.

Oh and im sorry but Camerons latest brain wave of stopping yobs from accessing twitter etc as per news item on this site just demonstrates the utter brainlessness we have running the country, no wonder why the "youth" who he and others are quick to blame act in a similar braindead manner. Led by example :rolleyes:

Utterly sickening and makes me so mad at both parties involved in the mess.
 
why just mention children, its obvious.. its a common concept that we all have that teenagers hang around drinking and carry knives, we hear about stabbings quite commonly but they only seem to get into the news because they are still in secondary school.. after all most of those types of incidents are school yard scuffles gone too far..

besides.. what better soundbite than to blame the youngest generations because it also ends up aiming towards the parents involved, plus the general mindset that everyone has these days.. dont get me wrong l do agree there is a lack of discipline in mine and younger generations these days but, if you consider it.. while the buck stops with parents.. there are also other factors along the way like school... but then even teaching assistants were involved in the riots at least according to my local radio station.. which begs the question, if we are blaming our children for the riots then what are we going to do about it? continue to label them.. all that achieves is kids living up to their labels because nobody believes better of them, and shouldnt we be teaching them the morals that are acceptable and to be the new leaders of the next generations?

still, as a final point.. one thing that intrigues me, the riots of the 80s somehow seem curious if you consider the fact that a similar issue happened back then and the same party seems to be in power this time than when similar events last happened. weird.. eh?
 
Not to mention if its all only brainless youths as the media has portrayed why hasnt the situation became worse and developed into a full blown race war after a 21 year old Asian lad was apparently killed by a young black lad? The fathers statements at the time (atleast those i saw, hopefully his standpoint is still the same) appealing for calm rather than more violence seem to have been the only common sense in this whole affair.

I also take issue with the whole blame it on the parents thing. Thats another easy excuse.

As human beings we adapt to our environment to survive. If any of us were growing up today in blocks of flats which should be torn down rather than having people living in them and are basically ran by gangs rather than policed properly, i doubt we would grow up thinking values such as saying please and thankyou are the right thing, but would rather be more concerned about watching our own backs and defending ourselfs.

We no matter what state we live in become part of the environment you live in, with very few exceptions. A caveman is a caveman, best to kill the dinosaur before it kills you. A person forced to live in squalid conditions ridden with say knife crime soon become one that is carrying a knife, best to stab the other party before they stab you. A person living in a mansion with the finer things in life soon doesnt like anything less. The examples are endless. Its pretty hard to be the so called outsider no matter what class you are in life all the way from so called scum of society up to toff of society.

Also the rubber bullets comment earlier although it was stated kinda lightly is another dangerous road which too many are leaping to and demanding. If it is all youngsters involved do we really suddenly want to start shooting rubber bullets into large crowds of 12 year (maybe even younger) people? Although im no expert on the matter i suspect even though its a rubber bullet its far more likely to kill a child with its smaller frame than an adult, especially if it strikes them in the right place. Also then you have to ask if suddenly children start to die at the hands of Police (be them rioting scumbags or not)....... What do you think is gonna happen then, id argue rather than eliminating violence and riots in the streets it would inflame the situation even more to the point it certainly wouldnt just be youngsters involved then.

There is no short, sharp, swift answer to what has happened, it has been festering and boiling up for years, the only thing that shocks me is how those at the top seem utterly clueless and are wondering why its finally happened.

Its a real shame and utter madness and idiocy all round, nothing more :(
 
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I am here in China, where 99% of the city populations live in FAR worse conditions than the UK, the tower blocks here are mere feet from each other and at street level would not look out of place in Dicken's London.

Yet strangely there is not rioting.

Not only were 99% of the people rioting not brought up in tower blocks, neither were 90% of their parents or grandparents.

If the conditions they live in are grim, then perhaps they should get up off of their fat, lazy backsides and make them better, instead of whining for someone else to do it.

Why riots under the Tories ?? Because they are threatening to cut off the "Bread and Circuses" the Labour party uses to keep them under control.

I personally put the blame on several generations of child psychologists who have brainwashed the educationalists into continually giving children far too much freedom and power. This started with the 60's generation; many of those those children grew up and gave their children even more ""freedom and the grandchildren even more; until you get to today where 3 year old children are allowed to say "no" and parents give in to their demands.

Alongside this, the culture of Health and Safety, with the blame and compensation culture have lead to several generations of children growing up in a "risk free" environment; they have no idea of danger to themselves, or of consequences for their actions; and the cult of "ME" means they consider everything to be a "right" and not a privilege; disregarding the wishes and needs of anyone else.

Finally, and I hate to do this, because in adults it is not true, the influence of video games mean they have grown up accustomed to consequence free violence and destruction. It is all well and good to put 12-15-18 ratings on these games, but the parents have been taught (brainwashed), to give their children what they want; I know of 8 year old children who regularly play 18 rated games and watch 18 rated films.

For years I have been arguing that for every "Right" taught to a child, there should be a corresponding "Responsibility" also taught; but try suggesting it a University level and you get demonised by the teaching staff.

Children have too many "Rights" and no responsibilities, and that is why things keep getting worse.
 
They in China are not rioting because as you stated 99% of the city population live in the same or similar conditions.

The younger generation involved who the media want to portray as rioting most certainly for the most part do come from tower block and similar housing estate deprived areas. Unless you know of areas in the UKs inner citys full of posh young black people that wear hooded tops, baggy trousers and similar garments, talk in slang and make gang like signs with their hands. Some how i dont think those people that have been shown in the media are the rich members of our society.

The Asian lad that got run over and killed by a car in Birmingham came from an area that is known to be poor and most of the population of the area is made up of Asian and Black families (something like a 60/40 spilt if what i read was accurate, which i suspect is was as the item concerned gave an entire history of the area including other rioting trouble its had in the past).

That is also why the father sensibly appealed for the community to be calm as its had race and rioting trouble in the past.

The video game argument and that they in some manner encourage or teach children to be violent is utter nonsense. Im sick of reading that nonsense every time something involving violence happens that involves a child. Its another Daily Mail readers type wet dream.

Im in my 30s and grew up in a time when we had arcade games with realistic looking guns you held (not lumps of bright pink plastic you dance about on) along with games such as mortal kombat that involved ripping peoples limbs off, setting fire to them and more, i quite happily remember my early teen years pumping coins into machines like that.

Not to mention im of the generation that saw the first generation of first person shooting games such as Wolfenstein and doom, which by todays standards are the modern day Call of duty type games which are also often blamed for so called violent children.

I never ran about in real life burning things, trying to rip peoples arms off, rioting, mugging, shooting and worse to people though. I also didnt need to be taught as a teenager that would be wrong, unless a person in their teens and even slightly younger (say 11-12) has a mental condition its common sense to realise running around burning things and robbing people is not normal behaviour.

By the time you get to that age you kinda know whats fantasy and reality, if you dont you have more issues than bad parenting.

Its also utter stupidity to blame games like GTA, that series of games has been going years (the first appearing in 1997 if i remember rightly). That would be way after the poll tax riots which happened in 1990 and gang related things that have happened in areas of London, Birmingham, Manchester and other cities throughout the mid 90s. What game was to blame for all that i wonder?? Some other flavour of the month if they had thought of blaming that type of media back then no doubt.

Im actually shocked generations older than me would blame things such as video games, especially as when they were younger they lived in an era playing cops and robbers pretending to actually shoot each other with very realistic lookin toy guns also. As they reached their teen years though they didnt take it a step further and actually get a real gun and shoot each other, did they???

That argument is utter clap trap and more spoon feeding to appease the stupid.
 
It is one thing Looting and Criminal Damage - Goods and Damage can be Restored - It is quite another thing the brainless
Arson and Endangering Life - this is Attempted Murder - Count up how many Flats over Shops and Houses were gutted the people losing everything

Every Convicted animal should be Evicted by Councils - One has already - and any Benefits removed and together with a % of Wages of those in Work to be paid into a Compensation Fund which should be started by the Millionaire Father to apologise for his Daughter - for at least 3 years - they should have Compensation but the Thugs should contribute - not entirely everyone else
 
While ill agree totally that those that endangered lifes of others should be punished. It seems just as I and other people originally suspected (see timeless and my initial posts here) it is not your typical layabout benefit claimant or just youths involved.

Today a string of people who are actually fully employed (some in very respectable jobs) have appeared in court, many in their late 20s. Most of these no doubt do not claim benefits or have council homes which is the image the media has fed us. While its clear that element were part of the trouble it is also now clear they were not the majority but only a part of the element that took part. But it made many feel more comfortable to have a core element to point and wave a finger at.

So much for all the medias footage of teenager thugs eh? That cosy image has been shattered, and we can no longer blame one element.

In fact one person appears to be a 19 or 20 year old that is a daughter of a millionaire couple.

I imagine the people that have rushed to say shoot them, water cannon them, take their benefits away and similar knee jerk reactions feel very silly now. Hopefully the lower class elements of society which were involved will see now its not just them that will be punished like the media and blinkered people wanted and all this trouble will not flare up again.

PS silv.surfer totally agree with your thoughts that they should all be punished severely, lets just hope the likes of those that have a rich mummy and daddy dont have a posh lawyer that get them off while the actual people that are poor and the media have shined a light on end up being the scape goats.
 
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truth4free, you dont say from what age you were playing these games.

I am saying that children MUCH younger than 12 are playing these games now; I am talking 5-6 year olds, these children DO NOT have the intellect to know it is wrong; to that I will add programs like Ben10 which cause no end of grief at our Nursery school because the boys go around beating the **** out of each other, then crying cos they didnt know it would hurt
 
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My first video game experience was probably when i was around 5-6 years old on an older brothers friends Atari 2600. My first home console of my very own was an NES in 1985ish which would had put me at around 10 years old.

I also do not buy the idea that kids TV programming like Ben10 affects kids for the negative. My age group grew up watching things like Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. I didnt go out and get a pair of Nunchakus like one of those turtles and start whacking things though. I grew up in the time when political correctness was just starting, Teenage Mutant NINJA Turtles was later renamed to Teenage Mutant HERO Turtles as the NINJA bit was deemed too violent. There was also demands later in that program life it should be banned if i remember right.

I also grew up in a time when games like British Bulldog in the playground were not banned, you played cricket at school with a proper cricket ball rather than plastic and the odd donk on the head or shin from the ball was considered normal rather than wrapping the kids in cotton wool.

I still also argue those involved around the age of 12 in these riots are the minority and not the majority. Id also still argue the few ive read about are products of their environment. I think the youngest was an 11 year old girl who clearly didnt understand what was going on and has grown up in state care, obviously in their case the state has failed them (the system itself like it or not has failed that child).

Its all too easy to blame a single thing for off the rail children, when more often than not its more than a single thing or something that has been going on for years and years.

The very fact many that have appear before the courts have been in their 20s and employed show its not just children. What has happened is disgusting and while i can not agree with any of it i can understand why it has happened and no doubt situations like this will happen again.

One of the cases involving a person that from what i understand didnt burn anything or smash anything but stole a few quids worth of bottled water has resulted in them being sentenced to a longer prison stint than a crooked MP that stole thousands from us. Indeed a few quid or not they should be punished but longer than someone that stole thousands??? Either way you cut it thats messed up and shows again how stupid those at the top are with knee jerk reactions to what has occurred rather than concentrating on why it may have occurred and doing all they can to prevent it in future.

The whole situation with this country and what goes on, not just these riots is pure stupidity. The country over the 30 odd years of my short life thus far has became a bigger joke year on year no matter which party has been in charge. The only catch phrase in this latest media frenzy that seems to fit the situation is indeed "Broken Britain", but not in the shallow thinking Cameron etc believes, its broken top to bottom, has been for some time and unless those that are supposed to run a country start to run it with some common sense its going to become more broken not less :(
 
The turtles were, and still are trash, probably one of the first cartoon series aimed at selling toys rather than entertaining or educating children. Because it was "Martial Arts" many of the children went and joined a suitable club, hence the big increase in such clubs in the past 20 years.

The Atari 2600 hardly had realistic blood and gore.

If Ben10 is not so bad, why have so many Primary schools and Nursery schools banned children from "playing" it, or bringing in Ben10 paraphernalia beyond a backpack or lunchbox??

Where did I say that the rioters were all children ??

BTW, I've reported the spam post after yours.
 
The last stats i read (though how reliable they are is debatable i guess) was there have been over 2000 arrests. The amount which are 17 or younger (classified as children or juveniles) was 200 and something. (IE around 10%)

Most were thus according to the law adults.

The oldest person arrested the last time i checked stats was a 70 year old for theft/shop lifting (depending on the source you read).

The majority (IE over a 1000 of the over 2000 figure) which have appeared in court according to magistrate court records were born in the late 1980s to early 1990s. So most of that over 1000 figure were probably early to mid 20s.

The youngest serious arrest was an 11 year old for murder/attempted murder (depending on the source you read).

The problem as i originally guessed in this thread was well beyond a few chavy like teenagers. I also seriously doubt the government claims that most of them were organised with things like twitter.

Once again our government appears to have took the moral no clue high road blaming age groups and things which suit their agenda..... What a shocker :hrmph:

EDIT:

I wasnt saying you were blaming just children, i was attempting to say thats what the government wanted you to believe.

Stuff banned in school, most of the time thats just silly, going way back now to a time one of my first loves at school, i remember how upset she was the day the school banned them from scribbling Bros logos on their school bag (bros was a boy band in case anyone is too young to know). The reason, it interfered with them concentrating on school work.

Blood etc in games....... Personally i dont think its realistic today either. Certainly no more gruesome than what the first mortal kombat was which incidentally was also banned just like doom in some areas of the world. That age group seem to have grown up fine for the most part though, or i assume they did as i was part of that age group and didnt riot.

I suppose we could debate the moral implications of TV content and Video gaming content all day, but at the end of it all there is no evidence to show that the "violence" in it affects people in later years.

I also grew up in the time of Transformers, Go-bots and other numerous cartoons which contained acts of fighting, destruction and so forth. In fact i would guess as a kid i watched far more cartoons of that nature than kids have on the screen today, i reckon i could name 2 for every 1 you name.
 
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actually l heard they were blaming it on gang culture and brought in a very expensive american police officer to advise on gangs, only to find out today that the minister put in charge of finding out what happened that it was mostly opportunistic ppl..

what it strikes me is that the government is trying so hard to find a group to blame so that he can try an unite the ppl using hate and disgust over criminal actions.. the worst part is that current events show how political sentencing has got which should not have happened.. criminals should be dealt with by judges not the government, and before cameron starts talking about the riots he needs to get his facts right.. and to stop throwing blame for the pure fun of it.
 
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