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Massive CBT boxes on blocks of flats for FTTP

RichInNorwich

Casual Member
I hope someone else has some experience or knowledge of this one. Openreach appeared at our complex of flats and started upgrading to give us FTTP, fantastic. The only issue is that they've mounted massive Connectorised Block Terminals (CBT) 2metres up on the front of every building (up to 8 connection terminals in each one) and they look awful and this is before any connections to individual flats are made, these connectors are usually up the top of a telegraph pole or in a chamber in the pavement (I wouldn't recommend searching for pics of CBT). I can see it ending up looking like a wiring spaghetti junction, I haven't seen anything similar in any other complex of flats in the area (that show as FTTP ready) and can't find any other examples of this practice online.
Is this the way they do it now or did they run out of the neat little grey boxes that I see at other properties, it really doesn't look right.
Thanks in advance.
 

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I have seen this in use for flats above shops but they are small 8 port units. The CBTs are wall mounted and then fibres will be run out to each property on demand. It is the same practice for existing copper and VM but yes these large weatherproof monsters aren't just block terminals or transition connectors.

I am assuming they are getting permission to mount their units from the freeholder (or management company/committee) and there are no internal install options such as risers or existing conduit.

Altnet's such as City Fibre and FW use a much flatter Aerial Splitter Node box.

I would talk to the freeholder or raise an enquiry with OR so that you can contact the manager responsible to discuss it. They may have an alternative.
 
Thanks meatball, I'll raise it with the management company. The splitter node boxes you mention sound like a much neater solution than the CBT. External mounting isn't so much the issue it's more the look of it and the location of the units, you can see they've done it in the easiest (shortest) way for them to get a unit on the wall of a block and not considered future cable runs to the individual flats, for one block the cable is going to have to either run internally through the bedrooms kitchen and hallway to get to the living room at the rear or take a 25metre+ detour around the outside of the building.
I'll have a wander around some neighbouring developments and see if I can spot how theirs have been done.
Thanks again for the response.
 
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Do you have a picture so we can see what the build itself looks like?
 
OK so the latest development, Openreach have said that they didn't obtain permission to do the works and apologised. They go on to say we've got two options;
Option1: We can remove the plant and the tenants of the building will not have access to full fibre broadband.
Option 2: We can keep the plant in place and look into wayleave payments.

Pretty disappointed with the blunt response and the take it or leave it tone and don't expect their wayleave payments to be anymore than a token.

Are there other companies that can be approached to install full fibre? Would dearly love to tell them to take it all out and make good any damage. (p.s. All flat owners have a share in the freehold company)

I had a walk around some other block of flats in the local area and couldn't see any that were wired up like ours are.

There's only one flat in our development that is connected to the new wiring. The CBT is a little over 2mtrs, a cable runs down from there to ground level where it's connected to a grey square box (about 200mm square) then back up to the first floor flat. there will be up to 6 connections coming off this CBT.
 
Are the CBTs fed from underground ducts or are do they take an aerial feed from poles from the street?

If the former - a more aesthetically palatable solution would be to construct a footway chamber and locate the CBTs inside the chamber, much as they do with properties that are feed by ducted infrastructure. The only visible thing would be the drop cables to individual properties. Although by the sounds of it some judicious routing of these cables is still needed.

It’s not beyond the wit of man, but would require further negotiation with Openreach to relocate the infrastructure - however if your property management company was willing to pay for the chambers etc. that would be a better solution than the current take it or leave it approach.
 
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Other solutions are definitely possible - see https://www.openreach.com/news-and-opinion/2020/Salisbury which makes reference to 'slimline' CBTs in use on listed buildings. I haven't heard of them since, though.

Without knowing the architecture of the development it's hard to make recommendations. Openreach have definitely gone for the lowest cost option here though. If it was my building I'd have a problem with this too.

The options I can think of are pretty much in order of decreasing cost and increasing visual impact:

1. Internal communal cupboard space for CBT with internal ducting to all units. The trickiest issues here are around fire safety and maintaining (fire) compartment integrity, you'd want to run drop cables to each unit at the same time as this installation so that fire seals could be replaced, but Openreach's model is to only supply the drop cable when a unit takes service. Other models (no CBT, smaller pre-installed internal cabling) exist for new-build apartment blocks but I haven't heard of this being provided as a retrofit.

2. Footway chamber outside each building containing CBT. Is this privately owned land? Cables would still run on the face of the building, and there would be the small grey boxes at ground level.

3. Fibreglass comms cabinet at ground level outside each building. Could maybe contain the small grey boxes too, but this isn't a standard method of deployment and Openreach might not go for it.

4. Wall mounted cabinet containing CBTs? I don't think this would look great.
 
Should be lucky to get FTTP at all, if I were OR I'd take them elsewhere to more grateful folk.
 
Should be lucky to get FTTP at all, if I were OR I'd take them elsewhere to more grateful folk.
I disagree. It’s not about being “grateful” at any cost. Especially given how much time and effort goes into maintaining conservation areas, listed buildings and just good aesthetics seems a shame to bollocks it all up for the sake of an afternoons work.

Openreach CBTs were never really designed to be an architectural feature - installed on building facades or the sides of buildings. There is nothing discrete or attractive in their design. It’s a large-ish weatherproof cable connection box.
 
Thankyou everyone for your thoughts on the topic and the links, because of your suggestions I've got a much better idea of what is possible and I think there's definite scope for improvement on what's already there.
We've arranged a site visit with openreach for next week to discuss our concerns and see what can be done and I'm much better armed thanks to your input.
Whilst it might seem a bit whingy to some, I think you have to remember that openreach isn't installing this technology out of the goodness of their heart, they charge companies for these lines and make a healthy profit out of it ( over £1.5 Billion last year ) it doesn't seem unreasonable to ask them to spend an extra £20 per CBT to maintain a decent appearance. Having said that, it's a public forum so all opinions are valid.
I'll let you know how I get on after the openreach visit in the hope that it might help others in the future.
Thanks again.
 
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Rich, bear in mind that when asking Openreach to “rearrange” their network that they may seek to charge or alternatively look to the property owner to pay for any additional ‘extra over’ cost, so be prepared as the freeholders to have to contribute or install the agreed/necessary supporting infrastructure yourselves, much like a developer would.
 
I think you have to remember that openreach isn't installing this technology out of the goodness of their heart, they charge companies for these lines and make a healthy profit out of it ( over £1.5 Billion last year )
What do you mean by "they charge companies for these lines"? Which companies are you referring you? Unless you're part of a BDUK (or other state funded) rollout, then I can assure you Openreach will be paying for your build out of their own pocket, ie a commercial build. They will only start getting a ROI once users start ordering their services.

At the end of the day Openreach will look for the cheapest FTTP solution if they're funding it 100% themselves. How much profit Openreach make is irrelevant since they're a business and not a charity. But if you (and other residents) want their equipment installed more discretely then be prepared to pay if necessary - almost guaranteed to be more than £20 per CBT.

Otherwise you will be left with 2 clear choices: no FTTP for a potentially LONG time or having to put up with a less aesthetically pleasing FTTP install. Can you post some photos please of the offending CBT(s)?
 
What do you mean by "they charge companies for these lines"?
Openreach charge the ISP, or a wholesaler who supplies the ISP, for the 'line' in the first instance.

The sensible solution is always somewhere in the middle. CBTs on the fascia of a building are one thing in high streets where they sit above commercial signage and don't affect the overall look of the structure. Likewise, on large apartment buildings where many services are run externally they're a small blemish on a much bigger canvas, so the impact isn't as severe.

The OP's case is precisely where the current architecture doesn't quite work: a relatively small building where the CBTs were probably sited beside the much lower profile existing copper DP. A full CBT isn't going to look great and 10 external CSPs all in the same place will be an eyesore too. Internal CSPs would make more sense in this case, but I doubt Openreach have a process to mandate their use.

Looking around Salisbury on Street View for some examples of the 'low profile' CBTs (it's a slow day at work), I might have found some on the East side of Brown St between Winchester St and Milford St. They're sited near copper DPs on the building fascia and the cables have similar white identification tags to those used on normal CBTs.

Looking at the Corning catalogue, my guess is these: https://ecatalog.corning.com/optica...-hc-splitter-terminal-with-pushlok-technology

Whether Openreach can be convinced to use them in this case is a different story.
 
What do you mean by "they charge companies for these lines"? Which companies are you referring you? Unless you're part of a BDUK (or other state funded) rollout, then I can assure you Openreach will be paying for your build out of their own pocket, ie a commercial build. They will only start getting a ROI once users start ordering their services.

At the end of the day Openreach will look for the cheapest FTTP solution if they're funding it 100% themselves. How much profit Openreach make is irrelevant since they're a business and not a charity. But if you (and other residents) want their equipment installed more discretely then be prepared to pay if necessary - almost guaranteed to be more than £20 per CBT.

Otherwise you will be left with 2 clear choices: no FTTP for a potentially LONG time or having to put up with a less aesthetically pleasing FTTP install. Can you post some photos please of the offending CBT(s)?
I never said that openreach weren't making a capital investment and paying to install the main line, I was making reference to the line rental that they charge ISP's, as you yourself say they will be getting an ROI from line rental once users sign up.
I agree that openreach will look for the cheapest solution (to maximise their profit, which is understandable as a business) but that doesn't mean to say that the cheapest solution for them is the right (or the only) solution for the customer and I'm pretty sure that as with any business there is room for negotiation.
If they had followed their own process we wouldn't even be in this situation;
1.Building Survey
2. Survey return & Review- "We’ll send you a survey pack and review it with you to make sure you’re happy with the bespoke solution offered for your building."
3. Wayleave Signing
4. On site fibre build.

No opportunity for a representative to accompany on survey!
No Survey return & review!
No Wayleave Agreement!

If they had followed their process we would have been able to provide input at the survey stage and wouldn't have approved the wiring that they've installed BUT would have had the opportunity to discuss alternative options, whether that would have been;
- for them to do the extra work if they valued the potential income from 50 new lines.
- for us to contribute towards the work to get the product we want.
- to seek alternate suppliers, we're fortunate enough to have cityfibre actively installing in the area.
- other options (feel free to add)

In reference to your other points;
> How much profit openreach make is relevant as it demonstrates that they are profiting from the provision of these services.
> The additional £20 per CBT is in reference to the Connection unit itself not any associated wiring and is based on seeing a suitable slimline unit online (around A5 size) priced at £40 and guessing that the other units were around £20, but yes a bit of artistic licence on that one.

It really feels like openreach are just bulldozing their way in, doing work without permission and saying "well it's there now" in the hope that most people will just roll over and take what they're given. Whether they're more active in Norwich with this tactic because cityfibre are chomping at their heels and they want to get in first so they can either get the line rental from the ISP's or the duct rental (as you mentioned in one of your posts) or they just want to hit their rollout targets to keep the shareholders happy I don't know.
Please don't think I'm arguing with you, I'm not, I'm just trying to explain my perspective on the situation.
 
Especially given how much time and effort goes into maintaining conservation areas, listed buildings and just good aesthetics seems a shame to bollocks it all up for the sake of an afternoons work.
Vanity has its price.
 
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I never said that openreach weren't making a capital investment and paying to install the main line, I was making reference to the line rental that they charge ISP's, as you yourself say they will be getting an ROI from line rental once users sign up.
I agree that openreach will look for the cheapest solution (to maximise their profit, which is understandable as a business) but that doesn't mean to say that the cheapest solution for them is the right (or the only) solution for the customer and I'm pretty sure that as with any business there is room for negotiation.
If they had followed their own process we wouldn't even be in this situation;
1.Building Survey
2. Survey return & Review- "We’ll send you a survey pack and review it with you to make sure you’re happy with the bespoke solution offered for your building."
3. Wayleave Signing
4. On site fibre build.

No opportunity for a representative to accompany on survey!
No Survey return & review!
No Wayleave Agreement!

If they had followed their process we would have been able to provide input at the survey stage and wouldn't have approved the wiring that they've installed BUT would have had the opportunity to discuss alternative options, whether that would have been;
- for them to do the extra work if they valued the potential income from 50 new lines.
- for us to contribute towards the work to get the product we want.
- to seek alternate suppliers, we're fortunate enough to have cityfibre actively installing in the area.
- other options (feel free to add)

In reference to your other points;
> How much profit openreach make is relevant as it demonstrates that they are profiting from the provision of these services.
> The additional £20 per CBT is in reference to the Connection unit itself not any associated wiring and is based on seeing a suitable slimline unit online (around A5 size) priced at £40 and guessing that the other units were around £20, but yes a bit of artistic licence on that one.

It really feels like openreach are just bulldozing their way in, doing work without permission and saying "well it's there now" in the hope that most people will just roll over and take what they're given. Whether they're more active in Norwich with this tactic because cityfibre are chomping at their heels and they want to get in first so they can either get the line rental from the ISP's or the duct rental (as you mentioned in one of your posts) or they just want to hit their rollout targets to keep the shareholders happy I don't know.
Please don't think I'm arguing with you, I'm not, I'm just trying to explain my perspective on the situation.
I'm not disagreeing with any of the above but an important question: Did Openreach get in touch with the MDU owner/leaseholder/management company for wayleave permission BEFORE installing any of their kit on the premises? if they didn't then its pretty much an unauthorized install and I would be very annoyed because its almost unheard of for Openreach (or any other network provider) to willy nilly start putting kit on apartment buildings without getting the necessary legal permissions.

On the other hand, if Openreach did ask the MDU representative for wayleave permission then THAT was the time to arrange a visit to agree on a mutually acceptable build solution. Or what *may* have happened was that the MDU rep simply told Openreach to go ahead and decide for themselves the best solution.

EDIT: Sorry just read your earlier post, where Openreach have admitted to not getting permission in advance and apologised. That is shocking! I would be very tempted to rip out the CBTs :D
 
Openreach charge the ISP, or a wholesaler who supplies the ISP, for the 'line' in the first instance.

The sensible solution is always somewhere in the middle. CBTs on the fascia of a building are one thing in high streets where they sit above commercial signage and don't affect the overall look of the structure. Likewise, on large apartment buildings where many services are run externally they're a small blemish on a much bigger canvas, so the impact isn't as severe.

The OP's case is precisely where the current architecture doesn't quite work: a relatively small building where the CBTs were probably sited beside the much lower profile existing copper DP. A full CBT isn't going to look great and 10 external CSPs all in the same place will be an eyesore too. Internal CSPs would make more sense in this case, but I doubt Openreach have a process to mandate their use.

Looking around Salisbury on Street View for some examples of the 'low profile' CBTs (it's a slow day at work), I might have found some on the East side of Brown St between Winchester St and Milford St. They're sited near copper DPs on the building fascia and the cables have similar white identification tags to those used on normal CBTs.

Looking at the Corning catalogue, my guess is these: https://ecatalog.corning.com/optical-communications/US/en/Fiber-Optic-Hardware/Terminals/Ruggedized-Terminal/Evolv™-Splitter-Terminal-with-Pushlok™-Technology/p/evolv-hc-splitter-terminal-with-pushlok-technology

Whether Openreach can be convinced to use them in this case is a different story.
Brilliant detective work, are you some kind of International Man of Mystery or Evil genius. Had a look at the location and I found one above the mini supermarket and one above the carpet shop. Much better visually than the CBT thank you so much for going to the trouble. You've opened up a rabbit hole for me to head down now, looking for blocks of flats in Salisbury on Rightmove then cross referencing on street view.
 
Thankyou everyone for your thoughts on the topic and the links, because of your suggestions I've got a much better idea of what is possible and I think there's definite scope for improvement on what's already there.
We've arranged a site visit with openreach for next week to discuss our concerns and see what can be done and I'm much better armed thanks to your input.
Whilst it might seem a bit whingy to some, I think you have to remember that openreach isn't installing this technology out of the goodness of their heart, they charge companies for these lines and make a healthy profit out of it ( over £1.5 Billion last year ) it doesn't seem unreasonable to ask them to spend an extra £20 per CBT to maintain a decent appearance. Having said that, it's a public forum so all opinions are valid.
I'll let you know how I get on after the openreach visit in the hope that it might help others in the future.
Thanks again.
Hope OR can help you here and make things more acceptable for all concerned. FTTP is the way forward and will be amazing when you get it.
 
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