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My unusual Hlog on ADSL2+ circuit and censorship on forums

I've noticed on my ADSL2+ circuit unsusual Hlog.

https://s22.postimg.cc/tgbw5782p/hlogwitoutmask.png

There are many undulations. I've written a lot about it on forum.kitz.co.uk. They have suggested that perhaps I have got circuit consisting of many sections with different gauges. However as I know this type of circuit is very widespread but I don't see so unregular Hlog on other circuits.

I've done much progress towards explaining this Hlog however on forum.kitz.co.uk and thinkbroadband.com moderators have locked my threads. Therefore I can't defend my ideas against their counter arguments.


I understand many people are not interested with my tenacious searching of answer but I think it is not reason to forbid me writing. Uninterested persons don't have to read my posts. Censorship is harm to potential interested person. I hope on this forum I can freely write about my research.


1. WHAT WAS I EXPLAINED?

I've discovered what causes through at tone ~55. It is caused by measurement errors. On the other circuit I've noticed small dip on the same tone.

https://s22.postimg.cc/pysdmc5qp/hlogdertyhwithmarke...

Furthermore, some day I had resynchronization and I and by mistake I was connected with target SNR margin 15 dB for donwstream and 17 db for upstream and other power output profile (18.9/12.4 dBm instead usual 18.6/12.1 dbM). By mistake because as I reconnected again I got again usual 6 dB SNR margin with usual power output. Then I had slightly more regular Hlog (weaker undulations).

https://s22.postimg.cc/uvdgu397l/hlog15db.png

This is a evidence of Hlog measurement errors (for example on tone ~55). It is noticable when I place two graphs on one coordinate system.

https://s22.postimg.cc/3ks5m6tg1/Double_Hlog2.png

One forum.kitz.co.uk user (burakkucat) has not agreed with my explanation. He emphasized limited accuracy of Hlog caused by granuality.

https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,22097.msg37...

However I think it weights in favour of my theory. Precisions limits cause that dip at ~110 tone is not noticable on other circuit Hlog. This Hlog have significantly smaller but the same measurement errors. Even my circuit had smaller than usual measurement errors at one day.

https://s22.postimg.cc/uvdgu397l/hlog15db.png

This is visible when I attach two graphs on one coordinate system.

https://s22.postimg.cc/3ks5m6tg1/Double_Hlog2.png

2. WHAT HAVEN'T I EXPLAINED YET?

I've still not disovered what causes tone ~210 dip. It is not smaller on anomalous synchronization with more accurate Hlog.

https://s22.postimg.cc/uvdgu397l/hlog15db.png

However one day I had event which would be helpful. I've noticed sudden reconnection and change of attenuation values at the time of pavement resurfacing works. It was 23.5/20.2 dB instead usual 25.0/14.9 dB (usual on D-Link DSL-2740B). Probably more users were reconnected because I had SNR margin about 4 dB immediately after reconnection (instead 6 dB). Next day after that day I also had reconnection during pavement resurfacing work and attenuation came back to usual values. On day with unusual attenuation day Hlog was significantly different per some tones. I think some shock caused some ipairtment on some joint reflected signal differently than usually.

https://s22.postimg.cc/rrzvo3ish/onedayhlog.png

Following there are usual and onedayhlog on one coordinate system.

https://s22.postimg.cc/q8b8856e9/Double_Hlog1.png

I suspect dip moved from tone ~210 to tone ~150.

Other interesting observations which could help explain cause of dip is that as I've shortened cables in my home installation I've noticed that as I expected attenuation per the most of tones was reduced however on some tones attenuation increased.

1. Red graph is Hlog with 12m long cable connected to master socket. Green graph is Hlog with 1m long cable connected to master socket. Attenuation with 1m long cable was slightly lower per tones 33 to around 180. It was also lower per tones 200 to 400. However, it was slightly higher per tones 180 to 240 and on the end of graph.

https://s22.postimg.cc/8hsv5177l/doublehloglongshort...

2. Red graph is 1m long cable connected to master socket. Green graph is Hlog when I've cut down 20-30m cable from box to master socket and moved master socket. Attenuation on shorter circuit is slightly lower per tones 33 to 180 and per tones 350 to 511. However it is higher per tones 190 to 240 and per tones 280 to 320.

https://s22.postimg.cc/v6i24n6lt/doublehlogshortvery...

3. Red graph is Hlog with 12m long cable connected to master socket before cutting down. Green graph is circuit after cutting down 20-30 m cable to master socket. Attenuation on very short circuit is lower with exception per tones 180 to 240. On these tones is higher attenuation.

https://s22.postimg.cc/vknzhfq7l/doublehloglongverys...

It is interesting becuase it seems to me that longer cable does not cause signal is less attenuated on any tone than it was attenuated when cable is shorter. Perhaps my impairtment causing Hlog undulations is related with this unusual observation.
 
I don't think I could add anything to this that hasn't already been said on Kitz and TBB, sorry.
 
Last edited:
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Can I ask what you are trying to get out of this?

A good question. ADSL2+ is obsolete technology. ADSL and VDSL are on their way, slowly but surely, out. With that in mind I am perplexed as to why anyone would spend literally years trying to explain the shape of a plot on a graph.

Far better to me would be to try and get UPC Poland to deploy their cable technology or another operator FTTP, making things like hlog measurements pointless.

I have actually ceased posting and even reading the Kitz forum for a number of reasons, not least that I find much of the content tiresome and some of the people posting there pretentious, though different things appeal to different people. To have achieved what you have there given the obsession some of their posters have with minutiae that doesn't matter, and the high level of intellectual masturbation from some, is pretty special.

What are you trying to achieve with this exercise? How much time have you spent on it? Given you only live once is the investment across a period of literally years worthwhile? I'm not sure you've even mentioned that this is impacting on your service. If it is, for me, a far more productive way to go forward is to try and secure deployment of alternative network: fibre in the loop, fibre to the premises or HFC.

Tried contacting https://www.upc.pl/ ?
 
Ignitionnet said:
Far better to me would be to try and get UPC Poland to deploy their cable technology or another operator FTTP, making things like hlog measurements pointless.
I would still want to know what is cause of my unusual Hlog. If I have a lot of money I would buy JDSU or similar equipment or hire qualified engineer with this equipment. It is simply curious. It doesn't make significant impact on bandwidth (perhaps 500-1000 mbps lower synchronization rate).
 
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This is a copy of a post I have just made on the Thinkbroadband forums here. Edit: NB you need to be logged in to the thinkbroadband forums to view the post.

You have a particular oddity in your HLOG. It's likely that other people have different oddities. Has it not occurred to you that if these "oddities" don't affect their connection they couldn't care less? It just demonstrates that the VDSL spec. is working and delivering the best it can for each line.

The reason you don't get what you want from this forum and the many others you have posted on (and been banned from!) is that they are forums for end users.

I don't need to know and understand all the intricacies of the electronics in my car to drive it. All I need to know is that when I push the accelerator it goes with the performance it should and when I press the brake it stops. If it doesn't do those things I take it to the garage. They all now have sophisticated diagnostic equipment that plugs in to the engine management.

Time and time again you have been asked what affect the "oddity" is having on the actual performance of your line. At the point where people realise the answer is none they lose interest.

Your wanting to understand the "oddity" is an academic interest. To investigate the "oddities" of your line requires the use of sophisticated diagnostic equipment and deep analysis of the results. Comparing your HLOG with others isn't going to get you anywhere because every single actual VDSL line in the world is unique. At a superficial level they many look the same, but once you start to dig down to the level you require there will be differences. See http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/technical/t/4598054...

You are not going to find anyone that will give you answers on any forum for consumers. The Kitz forums are probably more technical than most and you were pushing beyond their level of knowledge. You then expected them to do the research for you. (It didn't help that when several people gave you answers in areas where they are competent, if it didn't fit your ideas you rejected them.) You won't get the answers you want on here. You won't get the answers you want on the ISPReview forums where you have recently started posting. You didn't get what you wanted from the Polish forums. All of them are consumer forums - there will not be anyone on them that has the level of knowledge, the resources, access to your line to attach diagnostic equipment and gather data, the time or indeed the interest to do what you want.

As you have been advised several times on here you need to get help from someone with deep technical knowledge, a researcher at a university or working within the DSLAM, router etc. industry. That is likely to cost you. If you can't afford it that is not a justification for pleading you can't afford it and continuing to post on consumer orientated forums.

Finally, I will say that Kitz only bans people with great reluctance, especially when it is known that the person has mental issues. Kitz has made considerable allowances and been incredibly tolerant of the disruption you have caused oner a number of years. Many of us don't understand why you were not banned long ago. The final straw was when you ignored the moderation and your posts resulted in actual damage to the site's reputation with Google. That took a considerable amount of extra (and totally unnecessary) effort by Kitz to resolve.

Your posting on here to complain about the Kitz forums and on ISPReview to do the same has only hardened Kitz's resolve, in both cases it has been made clear by the respective moderators that their forums do not exist for you to complain about another forum. You also posted on the Plusnet Community forums (I've seen the screen shots) to complain about your treatment by Kitz. I would describe that effort as being purely vindictive and indicative of some serious personal issues. The Plusnet moderators had the sense to immediately ban you and totally remove your posts.

You are NEVER going to be allowed back on to the Kitz forums - face up to that. You also need to accept that you won't find the answers on here and it is even less likely you will find the answers on ISPReview.
 
Last edited:
@jelv This is a copy of my reply on thinkbroadband.
jelv said:
You have a particular oddity in your HLOG. It's likely that other people have different oddities. Has it not occurred to you that if these "oddities" don't affect their connection they couldn't care less? It just demonstrates that the VDSL spec. is working and delivering the best it can for each line.
I am scientifically interested with my circuit. I don't understand why people don't accept purely scientific reasearch of circuit.

. To investigate the "oddities" of your line requires the use of sophisticated diagnostic equipment and deep analysis of the results.
I bvelieve it is possible to discover a kind of impairtment wihout JDSU or similar tools. I am confirmed with my belief by the fact that I've done much progress. I've discovered one thing. Furthermore I've collected a lot of data for my circuit.

You are not going to find anyone that will give you answers on any forum for consumers. The Kitz forums are probably more technical than most and you were pushing beyond their level of knowledge. You then expected them to do the research for you.
It's shame that asbokid is absent for years. I've read his posts and I see he have almost academic knowledge about transmission line theory. I believe he would appreciate my discoveries.

(It didn't help that when several people gave you answers in areas where they are competent, if it didn't fit your ideas you rejected them.)
I always explain why I reject somebody answer.
You won't get the answers you want on here. You won't get the answers you want on the ISPReview forums where you have recently started posting. You didn't get what you wanted from the Polish forums. All of them are consumer forums - there will not be anyone on them that has the level of knowledge, the resources, access to your line to attach diagnostic equipment and gather data, the time or indeed the interest to do what you want.
I only want somebody will see my discoveries and support my research.

Finally, I will say that Kitz only bans people with great reluctance, especially when it is known that the person has mental issues. Kitz has made considerable allowances and been incredibly tolerant of the disruption you have caused over a number of years. Many of us don't understand why you were not banned long ago. The final straw was when you ignored the moderation and your posts resulted in actual damage to the site's reputation with Google. That took a considerable amount of extra (and totally unnecessary) effort by Kitz to resolve.
I got the final warning and I stopped my behaviour.
https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,21921.msg379056.html#msg379056
Despite stopping my behaviour I've got a ban. It is not fair. I merely wanted to write freely about my discoveries. In this thread I haven't called out burakkucat.
https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,22097.0.html
 
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Firstly, I've seen a lot of Hlogs. I've found similar Hlog only in this manual (page 15).
https://greenlee-cdn.ebizcdn.com/media/52066063.pdf
Unfortunately they have not written about characteristics of this circuit.

Secondly I have seen a hell of a lot more of these than you have and in a live ISP environment, there is nothing wrong with how it syncs up, unless it is intermittent no sync, speed issues it doesn't matter, if you want to pursue a lost case then so be it, get a oscilloscope on the end and measure each frequency.

I dont go off manuals I go off real world results and I see nothing wrong as long as it is stable and gets throughput relevant to the sync speed.
 
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