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New Estate some can get FTTP. Some only FTTC. Why?

Ron Swanson

Casual Member
I live on a new development (ex MOD brownfield) that has some streets that have FTTP whilst other streets like mine can only get FTTC.

I use the Openreach checker for my address and it says I can get

Superfast Broadband (upto 80Mbps)

but if I put in the address of neighbour a couple of streets away it says they can get

Ultrafast Fibre (upto 1Gbps)

Looking at the BT Wholesale checker it seems that all streets are on the same exchange, with the only difference I can see being the cabinets in the exchange.

The report for my house states under featured products that FTTP on demand could get 330 Mbps, yet in the text below the report it says

"Fttp is not available"

The report for a neighbours house statest under featured products WBC FTTP upto 1000 Mbps, and in the text below

"Our records show the following FTTP network service information for these premises:-Single Dwelling Unit Residential UG congested duct"

and

"FTTP is available and a new ONT may be ordered"

What's going on here? Why can some streets on the estate get FTTP but not others a few dozen yards away?

Report for my house
fttc.gif




Report for neighbouring street
fttp.gif
 

Msh

Pro Member
Unfortunately, that's just how it is sometimes :( You could try reaching out to Openreach, but I wouldn't be too optimistic.

I am a local to you (I think? Locking?), there's another new close estate with the same situation (Haywood), I believe the rest of the estate get Fibrenest though. Long shot but I don't suppose it's the same there?

You guys should get VM there for now? Also, I believe you're out of scope for the CityFibre works.
 

dabigm

ULTIMATE Member
Welcome to the Openreach fibre lottery.

It's on the street next to ours. But not ours. New deployment. Their business logic sometimes defies common sense. If you are in a new estate, you might just need to wait.
 

Ron Swanson

Casual Member
Yes I'm on the Parklands estate. All of the houses already have fibre for the TV media services. Conduits are all in place so if Openreach wanted to boost their install count they could do it here quickly without the need for digging, running cables like they would with older houses.

Many here do have VM but I don't want that. Just want a decent FTTP service. It would be for business use.

ISPs say you have to wait for Openreach to make it available. Openreach just say it's not available yet and to register for updates. I have contacted Openreach via their contact form but got no reply yet.
 

Msh

Pro Member
Yes I'm on the Parklands estate
Small World :D

Conduits are all in place so if Openreach wanted to boost their install count they could do it here quickly without the need for digging
That's true for a large part of the UK, it probably won't make much difference to their decision making.

Many here do have VM but I don't want that. Just want a decent FTTP service. It would be for business use.
Understandable. If you're after speed though, that's maybe your best bet for now.

It's unfortunate about your location and CityFibre, however, you're also extremely close to some live gigaclear properties, maybe try to contact both of them... at the very least, register interest.

Three give me perfect 5G (between 600mbps-gbit), maybe it'll reach you too if that's of interest.

ISPs say you have to wait for Openreach to make it available. Openreach just say it's not available yet and to register for updates. I have contacted Openreach via their contact form but got no reply yet.
Honestly, I think you've done all you can on that front.
 

Ron Swanson

Casual Member
I got a reply back from Openreach

"Thank you for contacting us.

I've had a look at this for you and it looks like your query will need some further investigation by our specialist team to resolve.

What I'm going to do is forward your query on to them directly and we will be contacting you once we have the relevant details."


I wonder if there is any merit in trying to force them to install FTTP on some kind of unfair practices reason, possibly escalated to OFCOM?

I could state that they have installed it for Houses ABC but not DEF even though there does not seem to be any physical reason why DEF can not get it. I could also state that my neighbours and other small businesses have an unfair advantage in that they get FTTP but I only get FTTC.

If this is a lottery then that boosts the case, because who "draws the lottery?"
 

Meatball

ULTIMATE Member
OR has no legal obligation to provide you with Broadband let alone FTTP. They will do it if it is of benefit to them in terms of investment, maintenance or revenue.

Sounds like the issue was created by the developer. OR may be unable to utilise other peoples duct by wayleave or internal policy. But assuming FTTC and nothing directly buried then duct exists.
 
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Msh

Pro Member
I could state that they have installed it for Houses ABC but not DEF even though there does not seem to be any physical reason why DEF can not get it. I could also state that my neighbours and other small businesses have an unfair advantage in that they get FTTP but I only get FTTC.
That'd be a difficult one to argue considering a huge chunk of the country doesn't get FTTP, not only that, but you already are gigabit capable service serviceable. Sure, it may not be ideal for you, but it exists.

It can be frustrating but all you can do is keep querying with the providers.
 

Pheasant

ULTIMATE Member
As noted, Openreach aren’t under any obligations here. If they don’t deem it commercially advantageous there’s no strong arm tactics that you can force them to build to you, in as much as you could force VirginMedia or any of the AltNets in the same way…
 

Ron Swanson

Casual Member
I am pretty sure there's a good case for the competitive business scenario. If Cyberbusiness A can get FTTP but acrosss the road Cyberbusiness B can not then that's an unfair advantage.

I need a good read of the Ofcom OMU as that does seem to have rules that are "designed to promote competition and investment in gigabit-capable networks – bringing faster, better broadband to people across the UK. The framework set out in the WFTMR aims to incentivise all network builders, including Openreach, to roll out new networks"

If it is the case that covenants are preventing Cityfibre / Truspeed from stepping on the estate, and if Openreach refuse to install FTTP at an acceptable coverage takeup then that totally restricts the customer's choice to VM.

I like a good challenge and would relish the task of taking on Openreach if they can not give a damn good reason why they would penalise one business but not another, especially if covenants are making them enjoy a closed shop.

There are indeed strict covenants on this estate and on the first 5 phases there are no green cabinets that are visible (if any at all). Only on the newest phase that was started this year are there street viewable green cabinets. I found two non descript grey ones but they could be ordinary copper cabinets, possibly lighting.

But even if the issue is due to not having permission for cabinets it does not explain why some houses do have FTTP whilst others do not. How / what are they connected to / on for the final leg of fibre?
 
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Meatball

ULTIMATE Member
Business is different than Consumer. Business can seek and pay for FoD if its essential for their business. From your description Business ISPs (using both OR. OR PIA and VM) would appear to be able provide it quite easily.
Giga vouchers unlikely to apply as VM already provide a Giga product.

Ofcom may use words like "promote", "incentivise", "universal Gigabit" etc which all sound very good but there is absolutely no commitment of supply, cost or specification only the USO and even that is a nonsense.

TBB figures show
3.1% are still under 30 Mbps (real figure likely higher as copper continues to deteriorate and poor FTTC)
33.3% do not have reasonable access to a Gigabit product

As far as Government targets go your already there even if its via the lovely VM.
 

rtho782

Member
Well, if this is essential for your business, perhaps explore FTTPoD, which it seems is available to you, and given the proximity of GEA-FTTP, install shouldn't be too bad.

You have absolutely no hope whatsoever of getting anywhere with your "this is unfair" argument. Zero. Nada. Zilch.

You might not like Vermin Media (nor do I!) but you have gigabit broadband available to you, in fact, if you're in WSM area, it's likely FTTP/RFoG.

So, you have FTTP, you're complaining that you don't have a choice of two independent FTTP providers and asking OFCOM to force BT to install it for you, which they already will do - FTTPoD is available - but they just expect you to pay the costs.

I will have some of what you're smoking please :D
 

Ron Swanson

Casual Member
Nobody likes to take on companies? You just sit back and take it? :)

Let's see what Openreach come back with. I have also asked the developer if their convenants are the issue, and if so why are the newer phases now having green boxes when we did not.

I go back to the point of House A / Business A looking out the window at the slower House B / Business B and thus there exists a two tier service. How can Openreach justify giving House A FTTP but not House B on an identical build, possibly on the same conduits? This is not a case of "I live out in the sticks and I insist you install it at your own cost". This (should) be a case of an easy to do install because you did the same for the neighbour across the road.

If someone comes up with a valid answer for that then I will accept it.
 

rtho782

Member
At what point does it stop? Unless the whole country is enabled overnight, there will always be an "edge" to the coverage, there will always be someone who cannot get it whose next door neighbour can.

There could be a million reasons that newer phases have it when older ones don't, maybe OR were busy when the first phases were built, or maybe the developer had a contract with VM. Even more relevant, is that nobody is required to actually give you a reason, so conjecture is kind of pointless.

There is no test of "fairness" in terms of who can receive what services. There is no requirement for an ISP to deploy "fairly".
 

Dassa

Regular Member
Hi,
Nobody likes to take on companies? You just sit back and take it? :)

Let's see what Openreach come back with. I have also asked the developer if their convenants are the issue, and if so why are the newer phases now having green boxes when we did not.

I go back to the point of House A / Business A looking out the window at the slower House B / Business B and thus there exists a two tier service. How can Openreach justify giving House A FTTP but not House B on an identical build, possibly on the same conduits? This is not a case of "I live out in the sticks and I insist you install it at your own cost". This (should) be a case of an easy to do install because you did the same for the neighbour across the road.

If someone comes up with a valid answer for that then I will accept it.
You're welcome to take on whoever you like. Unfortunately Openreach have absolutely no obligation to you at all, just like Ferrari has no obligation to provide me with a car because my next door neighbour has bought one.

Openreach are a commercial business, not some arm of government or a charity where legislation might require them to treat potential "customers" equally. If they want to provide everyone within 5 miles of you with FTTP, but not you, then that is their right.

Openreach have however generously provided a means for you to get FTTP if you really want it through their FTTP on Demand product. I'm not sure whether you will consider it generous when you get the price however.

You've stated that it is easy for Openreach to sort this, so it should be equally easy for you to set up a telecoms company, get the necessary licences and wayleaves, get the necessary insurance, dig a few trenches, install some fibre and connect it to somewhere - simple?
 

Ron Swanson

Casual Member
I don't think you read my previous posts.

And the Ferrari analogy is absolutely nothing to do with this. A more comparable one would be Morrisons delivering to my neighbour but not my house even though there is no physical restrcition for them to not do so.

Sure, they have the right to refuse delivery to a customer if they wish. But if they are doing that for no good reason (and one they will not state why) then that's something an ombudsman would be interested in.
 

bulldog

ULTIMATE Member
I think u stand no chance of getting FTTP because Openreach is their final decision not to bring FTTP in your area. Tough luck.
 

THB

Casual Member
I think your issue lies in not understanding that the network infrastructure for FTTP is built differently than for FTTC. And this misunderstanding means you cannot possibly know if there is "no physical restriction" to FTTP reaching you in the short term.

The assumption that any FTTP to your house would come from the Exchange your FTTC is connected to is likely not true. FTTP comes from a fibre node which is potentially no where near your exchange. My basic understanding is that the main fibre cabling from this fibre node is made up of lots of individual strands of fibre, which then goes through a fibre splitter to spread the individual strands to various other splitters and/or eventually to Connectorised block terminals (CBT's). The CBT's are fitted to poles/underground chambers near your house and is where any fibre cabling into your property is connected to.

In your case, you have no idea which fibre node your neighbours are connected to. Nor do you have any idea if there are spare individual strands available for a new CBT which you can connect to, or if there is a route from your house to the CBT your neighbour is connected to. You and your neighbours are already on different cabinets which means you likely have differing cable routes to your houses. So to get FTTP to you may not be a simple case of short fibre runs on your street - it may require whole new main fibre cabling travelling tens of km's back to a fibre node (possibly a different one to your neighbours) with new splitters and a whole bunch of more complex work. This is likely why FTTPoD is available to you - it can be done but is not (yet) worth the cost/effort for OR to do it themselves. And like others have said, there is zero obligation for OR to do this.

You could always try completing this form (https://www.openreach.com/forms/fibre-broadband-availability---customer-form) to ask the question of why your neighbours have FTTP and you don't, but I wouldn't hold my breath for a positive response.
 

Flagrag

Regular Member
As a side note is there any way of seeing which headend OR FTTP connections go to ? I have previously seen contradictory information, one engineer said the BT wholesale checker showed the information and another said it only showed the most local exchange.

Also if your local exchange is not the headend does your traffic pass through it at all ?
 
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