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New Estate some can get FTTP. Some only FTTC. Why?

Hi,
I don't think you read my previous posts.

And the Ferrari analogy is absolutely nothing to do with this. A more comparable one would be Morrisons delivering to my neighbour but not my house even though there is no physical restrcition for them to not do so.

Sure, they have the right to refuse delivery to a customer if they wish. But if they are doing that for no good reason (and one they will not state why) then that's something an ombudsman would be interested in.
I read your previous posts.

There is no obligation for any business to treat customers equally providing they don't discriminate based on a defined set of legally protected characteristics. A mistaken belief that Openreach owe you something is not a protected characteristic under law.

There is no supermarket ombudsman, Sainsburys could have a bloke stood at the door randomly saying "I don't like your face you're not coming in" and it would be perfectly legal. Morrisons could decide to stop delivering to your address "just because" and nobody could do anything to force them. Companies have more or less free reign to do as they wish within the law.

There is no general telecoms ombudsman. There is Ofcom who regulate the industry (not individual cases) and if you could identify something which showed that Openreach were behaving in a way that was detrimental to the provision of telecoms in the UK then you might be able to get them interested. Ofcom will not be interested in one person feeling upset because Openreach is planning to install fibre to them in (for example) 2027 rather than 2022, especially when they are under no obligation to install fibre to them at all.
 
Hi,
As a side note is there any way of seeing which headend OR FTTP connections go to ? I have previously seen contradictory information, one engineer said the BT wholesale checker showed the information and another said it only showed the most local exchange.

Also if your local exchange is not the headend does your traffic pass through it at all ?
There isn't a publicly available list of Openreach handover exchanges (of which there are approximately 1100 vs. the ~5500 total).

The only way to find out the local handover exchange is to find a new estate in the area you are looking at which only has FTTP provision. For those properties then the exchange identified by the BT Wholesale checker will be the the local handover exchange. For all other properties, if there is a copper phone line then the exchange identified will be the local copper exchange.

If your local exchange is not a handover exchange than it will only be used to terminate voice and ADSL (it may have a load of other historical stuff in there as well, but not FTTP or FTTC). FTTP and FTTC will go directly to the handover exchange. The long term plan is that the non-handover exchanges will be closed.
 
Hi,

One minor point:
[...]
The assumption that any FTTP to your house would come from the Exchange your FTTC is connected to is likely not true. FTTP comes from a fibre node which is potentially no where near your exchange. My basic understanding is that the main fibre cabling from this fibre node is made up of lots of individual strands of fibre, which then goes through a fibre splitter to spread the individual strands to various other splitters and/or eventually to Connectorised block terminals (CBT's). The CBT's are fitted to poles/underground chambers near your house and is where any fibre cabling into your property is connected to.
[...]
Both FTTP and FTTC are served from the same exchange and share the same fibre backbone infrastructure. It is ADSL and POTS which may come from the local exchange.

You are however correct to state that we have no idea of the local network topology around the OP and it is quite possible that the route to an aggregation node for a fibre to his property would be substantially different to the route taken by the fibres feeding FTTC cabinets.
 
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and if you could identify something which showed that Openreach were behaving in a way that was detrimental to the provision of telecoms in the UK then you might be able to get them interested

Exactly, and the only way to determine that is to ask questions and get answers.

To roll over and just accept "it's a lottery", "you can't beat 'em" is not the way to do it.
 
I live on a new development (ex MOD brownfield) that has some streets that have FTTP whilst other streets like mine can only get FTTC.

I use the Openreach checker for my address and it says I can get

Superfast Broadband (upto 80Mbps)

but if I put in the address of neighbour a couple of streets away it says they can get

Ultrafast Fibre (upto 1Gbps)

Looking at the BT Wholesale checker it seems that all streets are on the same exchange, with the only difference I can see being the cabinets in the exchange.

The report for my house states under featured products that FTTP on demand could get 330 Mbps, yet in the text below the report it says

"Fttp is not available"

The report for a neighbours house statest under featured products WBC FTTP upto 1000 Mbps, and in the text below

"Our records show the following FTTP network service information for these premises:-Single Dwelling Unit Residential UG congested duct"

and

"FTTP is available and a new ONT may be ordered"

What's going on here? Why can some streets on the estate get FTTP but not others a few dozen yards away?

Report for my house
View attachment 2049



Report for neighbouring street
View attachment 2050
Could it be that the estate was built across one or more phases, maybe even different developers were used.
Over the years Openreach has used different deployment guidelines for new sites. It's not been unheard of that earlier development phases have missed out on FTTP either because the developers didn't pursue it or openreach didn't build it due to the size of the phase/development. Later phases/developments receive FTTP because 1) the developer persued it with OR and 2) the size of the phase met openreachs new sites build guidelines.
 
From what I gather this is phase related but more so with location rather than phase timescale.

In the image the phases that were completed 2015/2017 is the location where FTTP is not available from what I gather. All other locations below the redline can as far as I can tell. That indicates it is probably location specific, and it also can't be date specific because the 2012 builds have it as well as the 2021 and 2022 builds. It's just the 2015/7 that can't.

lp.jpg



I hope no one comes back with a reply that you can 't have FTTP within 200m of a pond :D
 
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From what I gather this is phase related but more so with location rather than phase timescale.

In the image the phases that were completed 2015/2017 is the location where FTTP is not available from what I gather. All other locations below the redline can as far as I can tell. That indicates it is probably location specific, and it also can't be date specific because the 2012 builds have it as well as the 2021 and 2022 builds. It's just the 2015/7 that can't.

View attachment 2066


I hope no one comes back with a reply that you can 't have FTTP within 200m of a pond :D
Openreach basically stopped all FTTP build unless it was BDUK/ funded around that time in order to meet contractual commitments to BDUK. I think you are victim of timing rather than anything else.
 
As a side note is there any way of seeing which headend OR FTTP connections go to ? I have previously seen contradictory information, one engineer said the BT wholesale checker showed the information and another said it only showed the most local exchange.

Also if your local exchange is not the headend does your traffic pass through it at all ?
For a property with an existing copper service the BTW checker shows the local copper/ADSL exchange. It does not necessarily show the FTTP/FTTC handover exchange (unless they are one in the same). There’s roughly 1000 GEA headend / handover exchanges in their network. The rest are copper only exchanges.

Any data on the GEA network (FTTP/FTTC) does not pass through your local copper/ADSL exchange at all. Only as said if they are one in the sane.

Properties that have only ever had an FTTP service should show the handover / GEA headend exchange on the wholesale checker.

As far as I’m aware there isn’t a public list published of the GEA Headebd exchanges but the information is privvy to CPs and ISP from their Openreach info.
 
Hi,

There isn't a publicly available list of Openreach handover exchanges (of which there are approximately 1100 vs. the ~5500 total).

The only way to find out the local handover exchange is to find a new estate in the area you are looking at which only has FTTP provision. For those properties then the exchange identified by the BT Wholesale checker will be the the local handover exchange. For all other properties, if there is a copper phone line then the exchange identified will be the local copper exchange.

If your local exchange is not a handover exchange than it will only be used to terminate voice and ADSL (it may have a load of other historical stuff in there as well, but not FTTP or FTTC). FTTP and FTTC will go directly to the handover exchange. The long term plan is that the non-handover exchanges will be closed.
Apologies for the double over post Dassa. Missed your post above.
 
From what I gather this is phase related but more so with location rather than phase timescale.

In the image the phases that were completed 2015/2017 is the location where FTTP is not available from what I gather. All other locations below the redline can as far as I can tell. That indicates it is probably location specific, and it also can't be date specific because the 2012 builds have it as well as the 2021 and 2022 builds. It's just the 2015/7 that can't.

View attachment 2066


I hope no one comes back with a reply that you can 't have FTTP within 200m of a pond :D
I think it highly likely that Openreach will be back to complete the estate.
 
Thanks for all the responses so far.

If it is the case that Openreach won't come back then that allows us to put pressure on the developer. If they are happy for there to be a two tier system for internet then we can make our views quite known about this and that could put off potential purchasers of future properties here. This particular developer has plans for another 200-300 houses, and there are three other developers in neighbouring land with plans for around 1000 more although some of those 1000 are closer to a different exchange.
 
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The issue is related to the fact that there are so many phases of different sizes at different times and over long periods.

If VM are present then the developer on certain phases must have had an agreement with them. Any properties not covered by VM would have had a telephony obligation and would have been provided with an OR copper line based on the old NHBC schemes.

In 2016 Openreach introduced free New Build FTTP for more than 30 houses with a sliding scale for smaller developments. Prior to this it would have been FTTC. From March 2020 this has been reduced to 20 properties.
Similar schemes are available from VM, OFNL, Hyperoptic etc.

So the answer to the "why" is the developer(s)

Really there is no reason why any New Build since 2017 does not have FTTP unless there was no fibre infrastructure present at the local exchange (rare) but we all know of developments where that didn't happen (blame Government).
 
The issue is related to the fact that there are so many phases of different sizes at different times and over long periods.

If VM are present then the developer on certain phases must have had an agreement with them. Any properties not covered by VM would have had a telephony obligation and would have been provided with an OR copper line based on the old NHBC schemes.

In 2016 Openreach introduced free New Build FTTP for more than 30 houses with a sliding scale for smaller developments. Prior to this it would have been FTTC. From March 2020 this has been reduced to 20 properties.
Similar schemes are available from VM, OFNL, Hyperoptic etc.

So the answer to the "why" is the developer(s)

Really there is no reason why any New Build since 2017 does not have FTTP unless there was no fibre infrastructure present at the local exchange (rare) but we all know of developments where that didn't happen

The issue is related to the fact that there are so many phases of different sizes at different times and over long periods.

If VM are present then the developer on certain phases must have had an agreement with them. Any properties not covered by VM would have had a telephony obligation and would have been provided with an OR copper line based on the old NHBC schemes.

In 2016 Openreach introduced free New Build FTTP for more than 30 houses with a sliding scale for smaller developments. Prior to this it would have been FTTC. From March 2020 this has been reduced to 20 properties.
Similar schemes are available from VM, OFNL, Hyperoptic etc.

So the answer to the "why" is the developer(s)

Really there is no reason why any New Build since 2017 does not have FTTP unless there was no fibre infrastructure present at the local exchange (rare) but we all know of developments where that didn't happen (blame Government).
Looked a bit closer and it seems the whole development was initially copper only . Openreach then started retro fitting FTTP about 2 years ago. Seems they are on the last leg to completion
 
From what I gather this is phase related but more so with location rather than phase timescale.

In the image the phases that were completed 2015/2017 is the location where FTTP is not available from what I gather. All other locations below the redline can as far as I can tell. That indicates it is probably location specific, and it also can't be date specific because the 2012 builds have it as well as the 2021 and 2022 builds. It's just the 2015/7 that can't.

View attachment 2066


I hope no one comes back with a reply that you can 't have FTTP within 200m of a pond :D
Openreach install what the developer orders.
If the developer ordered copper only then that's what Openreach installed.

The quota has changed over the years but it is the case that Openreach will install FTTP for free to developments over a certain size. Anything under that quota and the developer will have to make a contribution to install FTTP.

Without checking the local area I'll give my guess as to what the situation is...

The earliest phases will have both copper and FTTP. The developer ordered copper only.

Your phase built between 2015-17 will have copper only. The developer ordered copper only.

The newest phase has FTTP only. The developer ordered FTTP as it was free as the free FTTP quota was cut considerably since 2015.
FTTP is the only option now for developments over a certain size.

The reason the 2012 part of the estate now also has FTTP is for 1 of 2 reasons. Either residents put pressure on the developer to fund an FTTP upgrade and the developer did so, or Openreach returned off their own back and installed FTTP under their RNS (retro new sites) programme. For some reason they decided not to include your phase of the development at the same time. This could be down to cost as the RNS programme targets the cheapest/quickest/easiest to deploy areas.
It may be that there wasn't enough spine capacity to cover your phase when they did this. Bringing in more spine cabling can be expensive and time consuming.

Your anger should be aimed at the developer as it is them who chose what broadband would be installed.

As others have pointed out OFCOM have absolutely zero powers to compel Openreach to install FTTP.

It's highly likely Openreach will return (sooner rather than later) under the RNS scheme to install FTTP to your phase of the development.
 
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