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Question to online gamers regarding Openreach VS VM.

MagLuster

Casual Member
TLDR:

8 years of borderline unplayable online gaming with no apparent connection problems. Desync, the feeling of being behind the server, impossible enemy reaction times and movement mechanics, terrible hit reg regardless of the skill level of the enemy. There seem to be discrepancies in every game I play, making them quite literally competitively unplayable, outside the realms of regular lag compensation and latency issues. Multiple ISPs all through some sort of Openreach equipment, want to know if switching to virgin media could resolve these issues

Long version:

Somewhere around 2016, I started to experience problems with online gaming that have stuck with me since. It seemed to start instantly, an overnight thing, all of a sudden the games I enjoyed just became completely unenjoyable and borderline unplayable. Games played, all with the same experience. CS:GO, CS:2, CS:S, CS:1.6, BF3, BF4, BFV, BF2042, Valorant, R6:S, EFT among others, and I even went back to try the old games that introduced me to PC gaming back on dial-up and ISDN just to find that they now have the same issues....namely, the UT series which I never had a problem with even on ancient connections were now unplayable.

The problems I have are more visual and feel related. The general responsiveness feels like I'm a couple hundred ms behind the server regardless of ping and which game I play. There isn't enough time in an encounter to react to an enemy before dying regardless of having quick (130-150ms) reaction times. Everyone seems to have sub-100ms reaction times or the ability to kill me before I can see them even when I have the advantageous position. Hit reg feels terrible, as If I'm shooting at ghosts/the enemy isn't actually where I'm shooting. Timings for everything feel off....high time to kill vs low time to die, enemy movements are outside of possible game mechanics, and mechanics like tagging appear muted or don't seem to work at all. Players spectating me will say I stared at someone for 2 seconds doing nothing while on my screen I was dead the instant I saw a pixel of him, probably less than 100ms of visibility, let alone 2 whole seconds. Enemy movements seem out of sync with what I'm seeing causing impossible movement mechanics such as running while transitioning into a crouch that should slow you down massively the instant you crouch, the ability to be completely accurate, and hit consecutive shots while running full speed. It's as if the enemy on the server has peeked, stopped, shot, and killed me in the correct order but on my screen, the instant I see just a small part of the enemy he starts shooting, kills me, then stops. Feels like everything is in the wrong order. When I hit a shot, the shot registers snappily, it feels good.....but anything incoming from the server that happens over time, such as player movement feels like it's completely out of sync with possible game mechanics and outside of the realm of being explained away by general latency and lag compensation. I've played thousands of hours of some of these games before the problem started and know how things should feel but now they just feel wrong.

I've been with multiple ISPs over the years and built multiple PCs but the problem remains. The only common variable is that at some point, my service has gone through open-reach equipment. First was BT Infinity VDSL2, Openreach/ECI cabinet, and of course Openreach backhaul. Next was Plusnet VDSL2 so same cabinet and backhaul as BT Infinity. Then I switched to Talk-Talk.... the same cabinet but now different routing as Talk-Talk has its own backhaul....to be honest gaming on here did feel a bit better but the problems remained, just a little bit less extreme/higher frequency of good days vs bad days, but still low.

Just over a year ago, full fiber got installed in my street and I was thinking finally, maybe I will be able to get away from these problems and enjoy gaming again, but it made absolutely no difference other than my ping being lower. I went for Giganet which uses Openreach street furniture and Zens backhaul, so Openreach is still there at some point.

I've thoroughly tested each connection I've had and seen no problems at all. Always low/1ms jitter, no packet loss, no out-of-order packets, no ping spikes, buffer bloat eradicated with QoS, A+ buffer bloat rating, etc.

So, Virgin Media has become available in my area now and my question is has anyone else experienced such issues and made the switch to VM and noticed any improvement?
 
Sounds like your internet has been experiencing extreme jitter and/or packet loss for a long time. I see you mentioned the common denominator being Openreach and the problem remained even after switching to Fibre to the Premises which is highly unusual.

I can say this, I don't experience these problems with Virgin Media but I expect you're going to get a lot of replies from people who don't have these issues on any ISP including Open Reach derived service providers.

Very unusual.
 
I honestly can’t recommend VM personally. They’re generally the worse of the two when compared side by side with Openreach. Latency is always higher in my experience and the connection feels generally less responsive, not to mention the greater levels of downtime on their network too. And that’s before we get to their customer service which is by far the worst there is in the UK for ISPs. Especially on the HFC side of their network I’ve found them to be terrible from a gaming point of view, and things greatly improved when switching the other way even to FTTC at a lower speed.

I really struggle to even guess what’s going on. Different ISPs, different computers, and even different lines since the switch to FTTP. I’m not sure anyone could give a good explanation for that. But it’s definitely not a common thing to see at all. Openreach are often on top for a stable and reliable connection.

Can you get a decent 5G signal where you live? It’s hardly the gold standard of networking especially for gamers but it would be interesting to see if your problems improve with an entirely separate connection in place to definitely rule out your equipment. You could tether on your phone if it’s 5G or even better try a month’s contract from Three where you’ll get the use of a proper router to give you the best possible chance.

The fact that every time you test your previous connections you don’t find any problems until it comes to real world use is what’s really throwing me off and thinking maybe something else is at play here. I’m just not entirely sure WHAT that something may be yet.
 
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you go with VM and you will regret it for life... coming from ex vm customer here. laggy nonstop drops, im on FTTP-openreach and have not lagged once.
 
I don't really play the type of game that requires a very low ping, but I'm with Zen via CityFibre and don't have this type of problem (my ping to 1.1.1.1 is 4-5ms), and didn't have a particularly high ping or significant issues with jitter on a Zen FTTC connection via OpenReach previously.

I did, however, have these problems with VM at a previous house years ago. VM cable is notorious for high latency and jitter, due to congestion and limitations with the cable technology. I have no experience with their FTTP.

Your post is a bit long-winded to skim-read for these points, but two questions:
- Are you connected via Ethernet or wi-fi?
- Are you connected to gaming servers in the USA? >100ms ping suggests so, which means if someone inside the USA is playing against you, they'll have the advantage. My ping to a random test server in New York is ~80ms and Los Angeles is ~130ms, it seems almost like you're playing on a western US server.
 
I was playing PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds over Christmas and was surprised to see for the multiplayer it had my full line stats at the top left of the screen the whole time.

This allowed me to see what my Ping was through the game as it was jumping up and down throughout any packet loss and all other line stats during the multiplayer game.

My stats were fine but I was thinking this would be very handy to have to diagnose issues if my line was not great.

It might be worth firing up this to see what your stats say. Also I wouldn't go to Virgin media. Just wait for FTTP to come to your area instead.
 

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Thanks for the replies.

@Pri No packet loss or jitter (<1ms) ever. Stats-wise the line appears perfect both with in-game net stats and out-of-game testing.

@Koda There's no 5G in my area but I have tried in the past tethered to my phone via my crappy 4G connection. The signal is poor indoors and it's unstable - ping spikes, jitter, etc giving the expected symptoms for online games but for some reason on that connection, the timings and movement of enemy players are so much more consistent and in line with game mechanics particularly in CS.

@MissTuned I'm connected via ethernet, with between 10 and 20ms ping depending on the game and server locations. I connect to the UK if available otherwise Western Europe. I tend to connect to Amsterdam or Germany in CS as it doesn't have servers in the UK, 99% of the time I'm connected to Amsterdam with 12ms ping.

@Anth I haven't played PUBG in a good few years now but a bunch of the games I play have the same graphs available. CS, Valorant, and BF all have detailed statistics. CS in particular has detailed reporting. If you go to your steam library and press ctrl + \ it will show your active and previous connections that use steam networking and have a plethora of detailed stats. According to that, my connection is 100%. It shows jitter, loss, choke, out of orders, and ping over time both at the client side, the Valve relay server, and the game server. Not a single issue there, not even a single dropped packet.

I just cannot see what else it could be. I mean, it's not an unknown problem, there are tons of people with the same issues but relatively speaking, it's the minority of players that have the problem.

There are communities out there blaming dirty electricity/EMI for it but to me, that just seems like nonsense.

Thanks for the comments on VM, it appears I'll be staying away from them:)
 
Have you ruled out local software on your computer? - I installed Grammarly the desktop software in 2022 and found it completely hosed my computer's performance in odd ways not dissimilar to your game issues. Made Chrome almost unusable.
Took me a few months actually to figure out it was Grammarly causing the problems.. its system-wide hooks to inject itself into running application's text entry fields is where the issue arose.

I mention this as if you're 100% confident your internet is fine perhaps there is something installed on your computers that you don't even think twice about that is interfering.

Perhaps do a fresh install of Windows on a new drive as a test and only install some games to see if the stuttering and freezing still occur.

Also, I've seen in the past that bad RAM timings can cause this kind of hitching and stuttering. You've mentioned you had multiple computers throughout this so this is less likely than the software thing in my mind.
 
You've gone through multiple ISPs, FTTC and FTTP: there's something else up.
Sounds to me like the PC is at fault. Try taking it round to someone else's house and playing there? Or borrowing someone else's gaming PC and running it at yours?
 
@Anth Yeh, I've ruled out everything I possibly can. Been through 4 PC builds, all new components, as mentioned before multiple ISPs, and from VDSL to FTTP, many different versions of Windows, Linux where applicable, and modded versions of Windows. Now you mention it, after installing a modded version of Windows (Atlas) online gaming was great for about a week but the problems returned afterward. I kept that os bare, no windows updates, no other apps installed. I dual-booted it just for games.
 
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What's your network setup like? is it Unifi or just a standard ISP provided router? ISP provided routers tend to be garbage regardless of connection speed, I have always had one issue or another with them, unless they're in modem mode
 
Just my two pence, i remember years ago I built my first gaming rig and I encountered similar issues.
I changed the RAM, clean install OS, changed the HDD etc but the ISP didn’t cross my mind at the time.
Took me well over a year to figure out it was a faulty motherboard.
I know you say you have done a few builds with new components but as others have said.
It’s probably best to borrow a friend’s rig if possible just to rule out any issues with your equipment or software setup.
 
My gut feeling says this is nothing network related. How are your monitor/monitors connected, how are mice/keyboard connected? If the stats all show fine for the network side of things, it's got to be either input or output delays
 
What's your network setup like? is it Unifi or just a standard ISP provided router? ISP provided routers tend to be garbage regardless of connection speed, I have always had one issue or another with them, unless they're in modem mode
It's Ethernet from the ONT straight into the back of a Proxmox box (i5 6500, 8 gig ram, 64gb nvme) with a virtualized router running x86 openWRT, then ethernet from that straight into the back of the PC running a dedicated intel NIC. I have my ISP router (Technicolor DGA4134) bridged just for wifi.

Buffer bloat is completely irradicated, although it shouldn't be an issue anyway and I'm the only one that uses my connection, and it's never even slightly saturdated when gaming. I've gone as far as to completely disable WIFI when gaming to make sure some other device isn't trying to do an update or something.

I've had many routers in the past, both ISP-provided and aftermarket all with the same result. Tried many different NICs.
Just my two pence, i remember years ago I built my first gaming rig and I encountered similar issues.
I changed the RAM, clean install OS, changed the HDD etc but the ISP didn’t cross my mind at the time.
Took me well over a year to figure out it was a faulty motherboard.
I know you say you have done a few builds with new components but as others have said.
It’s probably best to borrow a friend’s rig if possible just to rule out any issues with your equipment or software setup.
I've been through 4 builds without any improvement. Can't remember the exact specs of the older builds but my best from memory....

2015, when the problem started. I'm not sure if the problem started with this upgrade or if it was just a coincidence. i5 3570k, 8gig ddr3, mid-range msi motherboard which died on me and got replaced with a mid-range Asrock board. Windows 8. I was using a gtx670 from my previous build at the time which I upgraded about a year later to an AMD R9 390. 600 Watt EVGA

2017. i7 7700k, 16 gig DDR 4, Mid to higher end Asus motherboard, GTX 1080Ti, inherited the power supply from the previous build which died at some point and got replaced with a Superflower Leadex II 850watt 80+ gold. At some point, I was suspecting an issue with the PSU and eventually got a Thermaltake 850watt 80+ bronze but no change.

2021, i7 11700k, and new motherboard. I can't remember the brand but it would have again been a mid to high-end board. I'm pretty sure it was MSI. The rest of the components were inherited from the previous build.

2023, the build I'm running now, went team red with 7950X, 7900XTX, 32gig patriot viper DDR5 6000, Gigabyte x670 gamingAX X motherboard, MSI mag coreliquid C280, Gigabyte p1000gm, running the dedicated intel nic....its nothing special, was only about 30 quid but it was just to test mainly. I've gone back and forth between the dedicated NIC and onboard NICs with no change and also mixed and matched hardware between old and new builds to try as many combos as possible. I've also run multiple operating systems from Windows to Linux to modded versions of Windows, Steam OS, etc.

I also bought a UPS a couple of years back just to make fully sure (I never believed this for a second, but I was all out of ideas) that it wasn't an electrical issue affecting the stability of components or something. Running straight from the battery of the UPS makes no difference.

The last time online gaming was any good for me as I mentioned before was 2015 and what coincides with this time frame? Release of Windows 10 (but I didn't make the switch right away), my 2015 upgrade from a 6-year-old pc, upgrade to a 144hz monitor. Win 10 was released in July 2015 which is the exact month I started having these issues and when more and more people started coming forward with the same issues.

The build before my 2015 upgrade was a core 2 quad q6700, 4gig DDR2, Asus board, gtx260 to gtx470 to the gtx670 that was inherited by my 2015 build. Never had a problem with online gaming with this build.


My gut feeling says this is nothing network related. How are your monitor/monitors connected, how are mice/keyboard connected? If the stats all show fine for the network side of things, it's got to be either input or output delays

Current monitors, ASUS TUF Gaming VG259QM 25" as the main monitor/gaming and a Huion Kamvas 24 graphics tablet that doubles up as a second monitor. The Asus is connected via display port and the Huion is connected via HDMI. I've been through multiple monitors though over the years and I'm very sensitive to input lag. I can tell when there is input lag and this isn't the issue. Across the monitors, I've tried my reaction times on human benchmark are 135ms on a good day to 155ms on a bad day maybe with a gradual 10ms reduction over the years with newer hardware and higher refresh rate monitors. These reaction times don't transfer 1:1 to gaming as what you have to react to is different and variable but my base reaction time is in the top 1.2 percentile on human benchmark so it shows I'm not inherently slow.

As I mentioned before, the issues just seem to randomly go away at times, although very rarely for extended periods, usually an hour or 2. It happens across all games too....when I notice this massive difference In one game I will jump into a bunch of other games to see how they feel and have the same result. As I said this usually happens for short periods but the last 2 years on the trot it happened twice for about a week each time, both in November. I always take note when the problems disappear and this is the first time I've ever seen any kind of pattern. The only thing I can line up with this is that my Polish neighbors, who moved in 2 years ago, go home to Poland for a week or so in November every year... so huh?
I was wondering if while they are active at home something is causing some kind of interference. They have solar panels installed and when my problems started in 2015 I lived just down the street. Close enough that I was connected to the same local cabinet so my options for ISPs were the same. In 2015 my neighbors at the old property had solar panels installed. Am I going crazy?
 
Out of interest, have you ran a tracert to the gaming servers whilst playing? Also, you've probably already tried this, but have you changed the ethernet cables from ONT to openwrt box and from there to your PC?

Finally, have you asked for the ONT to be changed?
 
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Out of interest, have you ran a tracert to the gaming servers whilst playing? Also, you've probably already tried this, but have you changed the ethernet cables from ONT to openwrt box and from there to your PC?

Finally, have you asked for the ONT to be changed?
I've ran traces to servers where possible with no issues but when it comes to official servers these days you can only get the IP of the relay you're connected to and not to the end point.

CS, which is the game I play most has this built in though. After each match it will display the connection stats in the console but you can also monitor them in real time via the steam client. It shows data for both throughout and latency at each point, client, relay and game server. At each point it shows dropped packets, out of orders, latency, jitter, etc. according to these stats my connection is perfect. I've only seen a single dropped packet on the client side in the past few days of watching these graphs. I'm on phone ATM but I'll post a screenshot in a few minutes.

I havnt had the ONT changed but I can't see that being the issue as tests show no issues and the problems I've experienced have been around for years now over many connections.

Edit: As for the Ethernet cables yes they've been replaced multiple times and a few months back I bought some high quality ones.
 
Out of interest, have you ran a tracert to the gaming servers whilst playing? Also, you've probably already tried this, but have you changed the ethernet cables from ONT to openwrt box and from there to your PC?

Finally, have you asked for the ONT to be changed?
I've ran traces to servers where possible with no issues but when it comes to official servers these days you can only get the IP of the relay you're connected to and not to the end point.

CS, which is the game I play most has this built in though. After each match it will display the connection stats in the console but you can also monitor them in real time via the steam client. It shows data for both throughout and latency at each point, client, relay and game server. At each point it shows dropped packets, out of orders, latency, jitter, etc. according to these stats my connection is perfect. I've only seen a single dropped packet on the client side in the past few days of watching these graphs. I'm on phone ATM but I'll post a screenshot in a few minutes.

I havnt had the ONT changed but I can't see that being the issue as tests show no issues and the problems I've experienced have been around for years now over
 
Turn it off and back on?
Joking.

I know this sounds really simple, and I imagine the answer is yes.
You said when Fibre was available in your area, you essentially got it. Since that day, has the actual line itself into your property been replaced? If the cabs are fine, that's great but I'm wondering if it's a physicality thing, as opposed to the network itself?

Call me stupid if I'm being stupid, I am a little tired, but I remember having a similar issue on fibre 67mb (which was more than enough for the most part) but when I upgraded to fibre 900 I got a new line put in through my property and that solved my issue.
Yes it could've just been a speed thing, but considering it's just me in the house, fibre 67 was more than enough for CS and Payday 2 but I had this issue intermittently.
 
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