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REIN resolution

Posting on behalf of one of my clients...

Their ADSL broadband breaks regularly.

After a period of monitoring it appears that this is when they use a particular piece of equipment in their building. When that is switched on the ADSL drops.

However not using it, is not an option.

In terms of resolving this which of these is right:

1. The equipment itself is in breach of some sort of standard and needs to be rectified by the supplier so as not to transmit the interference - so the supplier needs to fix this and once that's done the broadband issue will resolve itself;

2. The broadband service is faulty because it shouldn't be able to be taken down by an unrelated piece of equipment and Openreach are obliged to fix this;

3. Nobody is obliged to fix this and what they need is a router like the one I have which is dual ADSL/HSPA with built-in failover or some other similar solution (they cannot get cable where they are)

Thanks,
Mark
 
LOL is the name of the ISP concerned a well known LLU provider with 2 letters in its name? Oh and let me guess further they never had the issue before using this provider?
 
Hi Mark2,

Unfortunately you haven't really provided enough information for a proper assessment. For example it would be good to know what this piece of "equipment" actually is and how close is it to their router?

Certainly some equipment can cause interference with ADSL, such as faulty AC adapters or crappy DECT phones, although often covering all your ADSL basics and installing a filtered faceplate can get around such issues.

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/articles/adsltips/

But without more information it could be any number of things.
 
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I am guessing it is a fire or burglar alarm; the building we lease from the council for after school club has an alarm system that is incompatible with either a phone OR ADSL internet use (in other words it is a POS!!), As there is only one phone line to the building, we have to use mobile phones to make and receive calls!! and to update the computers, I have to lug them back to my house, as I am JUST out of wifi range, even with +9db antenna attached.
 
I can't actually say what the machine is. There are good reasons for this. Got you intrigued now I bet ;)

It's two or three floors away from the router, I think.

The ISP is BT though that said I don't suppose the choice of ISP is important. There is no infrastructural choice where they are.

Whenever the machine is used, the broadband drops immediately, and sometimes calls as well.

No, it isn't the Hadron Collider.
 
So this is able to wipe out the PTSN too, Open reach would just ask you not to use it, and probably correctly also charge you for the visit if you reported it as a fault And in any event you have control of the offending equipment
they would not get involved re routing cables unless you where prepared to fund the work yourself, The question that i would be asking is this also having a negative impact on neighbouring line plant also ,is it polluting the BT openreach network with interference ?
I have a source of similar interference local to me, but it only affects the ADSL but no one gives a stuff ,

1. The equipment itself is in breach of some sort of standard and needs to be rectified by the supplier so as not to transmit the interference - so the supplier needs to fix this and once that's done the broadband issue will resolve itself;

you could try replacing/re routing any telephone wiring that is near to the machine, or it's power cables away from them,with sheilded twisted pair cabling,whilst that may not stop it completely it will most likely be beneficial you could also use some sort of filtering that feeds the router and phones (assuming they use mains supply)
 
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I was wondering that - whether it's "over the air" type interference, or electrical interference.

I think the machine probably uses a fair bit of electricity. Perhaps the power cables have been plumbed in adjacent to the phone lines somewhere. There's no special reason I can see why it would actually generate radio based interference.

Whatever it is, if you're on the phone to them at the time you hear a "digital thump" and the call drops.

What I don't know is how the phone lines are plumbed in, I'd say it's safe to assume they don't enter at the top of the building and work their way downwards - it's an underground feed. I can't say whether it affects the neighbours.

Sounds like the best starting point is to follow the power cables out of the machine and see where they go, and possibly fit some kind of isolator/filter as you say.
 
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OK, check the machine is PROPERLY* earthed, and not acting as a giant antenna.

If the problem is one small area of the machine, can a Faraday cage be built to contain the problem??


* I came across a parcel sorting depot where everything was earthed to a metal cable tray (now illegal), alongside the conveyor; that went to an earthing point in the central control room; only problem was, there was an 8" gap between the tray attached to the platform and the tray entering the control room.

No one noticed for 20 odd years!!!!

The only other option, assuming the machine cannot be fixed/replaced, is to shield all of the telephone cables/LAN lines, or replace them with cat6 cable.
 
LOL is the name of the ISP concerned[..snip]
Was that really required?

Back to the topic. As others have commented too; I would be incredibly worried what this device is doing to neighbouring lines :\
When you describe a "digital thump" and then it drops that sounds more like it's interfering with their DECT or (illegal) old analogue cordless phone which loses connectivity to the base station and the call drops. This would signify quite horrific RF interference from whatever it is. Are they using cordless or corded?
It shouldn't be possible to drop an analogue corded phone's connection without physically disconnecting the wires. RF interference would just be heard until the device was stopped or the person hung up.

I too am very interested in what this mystery device is :) The only things I've known to interfere with phone lines in such a way yet not be permanently on are transmitters :P (Mediumwave and high power CB?). My other thought given the information you have provided is that it's a lift system? But it would be the first I have heard of one causing such problems.
I have heard of high speed trains causing DSL to drop when they pass by near houses!

It might be worth trying to put RF chokes on each end of cables leading to the phone socket and router and possibly the power cables too in case its being induced into the device via other connections. This can be done as simply as winding a wire around a couple of fingers multiple times and cable tying or taping them in that state similar to this:
http://www.bonalba.org/dx4.us/Pictures antennas/M2/RF choke onder bevestiging.JPG

Or get a ferrite core and thread it through and loop it around a few times:
http://www.nonstopsystems.com/radio/antenna-edx-installation-5.JPG

As for the options / questions in your initial post - I would say that you should get the equipment maintainers around and demonstrate the problem and see what they say. They might be less interested in the broadband but if they can see that it's causing a phone call to drop that is more tangible. Have you noticed it interfering with anything else such as Freeview or radio reception? If not tested, does it interfere with Radio 5 Live on Mediumwave?

Tom - www.mouselike.org
 
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Was that really required?

I didnt specifically name anyone, and there is more than one LLU provider known by just 2 letters. As you should know.

Predictably though like a hungry lion you pounced. I have no idea why unless the issue concerned really is significant with the provider you are thinking of.
 
Predictably though like a hungry [..snip]
Cute but wrong. Enough with these shenanigans. Provoke, offtopic etc.. spring to mind.

On-topic: Today I visited a local customer "on demand" (I had spare time luckily) as their DSL was dropping and resyncing and often not PPPing. I turned up, noted that it was absolutely fine... I was about to leave and then all IP traffic stopped! Router reported DSL and PPP but no data could be exchanged. After a while the PPP session dropped and wouldnt re-auth (time out). It was easy to locate the problem..

Their neighbour had started jet washing their paving stones again (I had noticed that they were doing so as I walked up to the "problem customer"). Sure enough, the moment the jet washing stopped everything returned to normal.
Funny that I experience a problem problem like this so soon after a post about similar symptoms.

Tom - www.mouselike.org
 
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[Admin note: deleted so as to keep thread on-topic. Take your gripes to a PM]

I have no gripes, who should i be PM'ing?
 
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Posting on behalf of one of my clients...

Their ADSL broadband breaks regularly.

After a period of monitoring it appears that this is when they use a particular piece of equipment in their building. When that is switched on the ADSL drops.

However not using it, is not an option.

In terms of resolving this which of these is right:

1. The equipment itself is in breach of some sort of standard and needs to be rectified by the supplier so as not to transmit the interference - so the supplier needs to fix this and once that's done the broadband issue will resolve itself;

2. The broadband service is faulty because it shouldn't be able to be taken down by an unrelated piece of equipment and Openreach are obliged to fix this;

3. Nobody is obliged to fix this and what they need is a router like the one I have which is dual ADSL/HSPA with built-in failover or some other similar solution (they cannot get cable where they are)

Thanks,
Mark

To be able to say without making generalisations I would need to know what kind of machine it is, BT Openreach would refer it to their REIN team and they in turn would look in to it, depending what type of machine it is they may help and work with the manufacturers of the machine if it is causing a more wide spread problem.

However if it is causing other peoples phone lines PSTN side to drop it would be reported to Ofcom who could in theory enforce you to stop using it if it is causing issues with other peoples PSTN lines.

PM me with more information if you like and I will be able to give more help.

Lee
 
R.E.I.N engineer's would be of little help as the source of the EMI is known and within the control of the OP , plus in some areas they are like rocking horse s*** so would be doubtful if they where deployed for this problem,

And because it's the customers equipment which is presumably in situ at the same property that the affected line is connected to, I would say it would be very doubtfull if they would get involved looking for the reason why the equipment is causing this,as it's not their job plus theire's always the very real risk of the charge the £130 fee, for the visit as they would say what we know already it's this unidentified piece of equipment causing the issues so down to the customer,no rein team or further investiagtion required ,
Yes i have a negative view as far as openreach engineers go , but they gave me good reason to have,
 
Thanks everyone.

I can't disclose what type of machine it is simply because only about half a dozen people or less have these, so it would rather narrow it down.

I'm in two minds as regards responsibilities, on the one hand surely if the PSTN and broadband can be taken down by electrical interference, then the Openreach circuitry ought to be properly shielded to prevent noise leaking into their network so that's certainly something they should be responsible for - if it is known that the technology is vulnerable to this, then sort out the technology so that the vulnerability is removed e.g. cable uses co-ax which is presumably less vulnerable since the inner and outer core are shielded from each other and the whole thing is wrapped inside another fat outer sheath.

On the other hand, if the machine has been installed in such a way as to cause this then the installers might very well have responsibility for taking this into account given that "it as as it is" and ought to have worked with what's there. And it isn't the only installation of the machine in existence.

I'm in there this week, so will have a look at how it's plumbed in and confirm whether it's the entire PSTN service going down or whether it's just the cordless phones that do that. Certainly if the machine is as far away from the router as I believe it is, it must be pushing some severe interference to impact it. It may perhaps, in the short term, be as simple as uncoupling the extensions of the phone circuits that run to the same floor, notwithstanding, that the machine should not do this anyway and may still need looking into.
 
I can understand what you mean but the frequencies that PSTN is on is a protected range and nothing else is allowed to broadcast on that range which is why ofcom would get involved.
 
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OK then... the electrical cables which feed the machine pass quite close to the router. So either that has to be moved, or the power cables need to be moved.

So it's not an "over the air" radio type interference, but simply that the current passing close to the router is interfering with it.

The PSTN drops seem to have stopped now/was a different issue.

The premises may actually be lucky enough to be receiving a choice of infrastructures soon based on announced plans, but in the meantime, there are two possibilities to pursue.
 
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