Sponsored Links

Why is a big portion of London not in Openreach's FTTP build plan yet?

Qbcd

Super Pro Member
If you go to Openreach's FTTP build plan map you see several different colors. Green is finished, blue is currently building, orange is "we'll be building soon", black is "we'll be building in the future", and no color is "not part of our build yet", which I guess means those areas will see FTTP in some distant Star Trek future.

In London notably there is a large portion of central, north, northwest, and west London that are in the no-color category. Given the population density of these areas, you'd think it would be profitable for OR to complete them relatively quickly, but they're not even colored black yet, which I think means at least 2 years away but probably 3-5 or more. Honestly I can't imagine all of the UK being colored green on that map in the next 10 years.

So does anyone know the reason for the lack of development in a large portion of London? Is it because there is already FTTP from other providers? I live in one of the no-color exchanges and we have Community Fibre and Hyperoptic available. I'm currently with CF, so if OR came it's unlikely I would switch - and maybe that's why they're not building here because they can't compete with CF's prices.

So is this the reason, or one of the reasons, or what, any insight is appreciated.
 
Those who know probably cant disclose, but my speculation is the rollout has political interference (via subsidies) which has led to some area you think would be obvious candidates missing out so more rural areas get coverage.

There is other urban areas in same situation like Leicester.

Whether these will get plans in the future remains to be seen.
 
Lots of MDUs, availability of resources, complexity to do roadworks in sensitive sites and that some of London's duct network sucks.

Definitely not because of Hyperoptic / Community Fibre: they incentivise Openreach to build not deter.

Some parts of London though they are dense are considerably more costly than some other urban areas, especially now PIA operators have been filling up duct space.
 
Sponsored Links
Definitely not because of Hyperoptic / Community Fibre: they incentivise Openreach to build not deter.
Yes, this is right. I'm not in London, but I was in an area where Openreach was aspiring to maybe think about planning to build out FTTP by the end of 2026. CityFibre came along and made themselves ready for service, and guess who suddenly decided we were a priority and got us rolled out within months?

I don't know why anyone given the choice would go with OR over CF - the prices on the latter are generally lower, there's a good choice of ISPs and the speeds are better.
 
The map is wrong. Our area shows as "we'll be building in the future". In reality they've provided FTTP in our area more than a year ago.
 
The map is wrong. Our area shows as "we'll be building in the future". In reality they've provided FTTP in our area more than a year ago.
Really? Well now I've lost faith in the entire project.
 
The map is wrong. Our area shows as "we'll be building in the future". In reality they've provided FTTP in our area more than a year ago.
The map provided by openreach on their website only reports on their commercial rollout plans. If you get fttp coverage from them through other means [retro-fit on a new build, smaller build programmes like R100 in Scotland for example], these are not reported on the map. Some exchanges, like Lyth or Fair Isle in northern scotland for example, have fttp priority flags and “we’ve stopped selling copper products here”, but its counted as “no plans to build here”, because that fttp coverage was provided by alternative means and not under a commercial rollout.
 
Sponsored Links
Lots of MDUs, availability of resources, complexity to do roadworks in sensitive sites and that some of London's duct network sucks.

Definitely not because of Hyperoptic / Community Fibre: they incentivise Openreach to build not deter.

Some parts of London though they are dense are considerably more costly than some other urban areas, especially now PIA operators have been filling up duct space.
Fair points, I think laws on MDU wayleave's need modernising, as really that should be a boon not a con, its higher population density. Access to do roadworks, perhaps not so easy to solve.
 
I don't know why anyone given the choice would go with OR over CF - the prices on the latter are generally lower, there's a good choice of ISPs and the speeds are better.
People don't choose their wholesale network, but they do choose their retail provider. Many people choose BT just because they always have, or EE because of blanket advertising with Kevin Bacon, or Plusnet on price. None of those use the Cityfibre network for obvious reasons. I'm not sure if Sky do these days either.

So there's a large proportion of the retail base that's going to end up being served over the Openreach network, whether they know it or not.

This forum is not representative of the vast majority of users, who are not techno-heads and don't care about upload speeds. As long as they can browse the web and watch Netflix, they're happy. There's a large segment who are very sensitive to price though, so if they get a good offer from the likes of Vodafone (who do use Cityfibre) or a retail Altnet, they'll likely switch - even for a saving of £1 per month.
 
People don't choose their wholesale network, but they do choose their retail provider. Many people choose BT just because they always have, or EE because of blanket advertising with Kevin Bacon, or Plusnet on price. None of those use the Cityfibre network for obvious reasons. I'm not sure if Sky do these days either.

So there's a large proportion of the retail base that's going to end up being served over the Openreach network, whether they know it or not.

This forum is not representative of the vast majority of users, who are not techno-heads and don't care about upload speeds. As long as they can browse the web and watch Netflix, they're happy. There's a large segment who are very sensitive to price though, so if they get a good offer from the likes of Vodafone (who do use Cityfibre) or a retail Altnet, they'll likely switch - even for a saving of £1 per month.
100% agreed. I have told my neighbours that Community Fibre was one of the best ISPs one could get and that nothing beats them on price and speed. Yet when it was time to renew their deal with BT they moved to EE because they offered them a deal with the EE mobile plans they had. They are still paying more than going CF + SIM only but they prefer it this way as they can't be bothered to look for the best SIM only plan, use a PAC code. Basically BT gave them a deal that's "good enough" for them to kick the ball into the future. Most people are like that, give them a "good enough" deal and they will take. Irrespective of having the option to get a much better deal elsewhere. They also don't see their internet service as technology playground area like we do but as a utility that just works. They don't understand the differences between the different connection options or speeds and what's better for them. And despite me offering to advice they just prefer to stay status quo rather than change. Humans don't like change...
 
People don't choose their wholesale network, but they do choose their retail provider. Many people choose BT just because they always have, or EE because of blanket advertising with Kevin Bacon, or Plusnet on price. None of those use the Cityfibre network for obvious reasons. I'm not sure if Sky do these days either.

Sky, much to CityFibre's regret, don't use them for anything on the wholesale FTTP side besides as leverage with Openreach.
 
Sponsored Links
Sky, much to CityFibre's regret, don't use them for anything on the wholesale FTTP side besides as leverage with Openreach.
Thanks for confirming. There was a joint venture in the early days, but that must have gone by the wayside.

I don't think Openreach could do bespoke pricing for Sky, but presumably the Equinox 1 and 2 offers (which are available to everyone) were designed to suit them.
 
and what's better for them.
If they don't *want* the speed or features then arguably it is not better for them, and that's before getting into the hassles of having yet another service physically installed into the home.

This is a challenge even Openreach has, with users in FTTP-enabled areas clinging onto copper - which is why offer the "carrot" by discounting prices for ISPs who commit to selling FTTP where available (and the stick, in the form of the stop sell)
 
Thanks for confirming. There was a joint venture in the early days, but that must have gone by the wayside.
UFO Was a joint partnership between Sky and TalkTalk in very limited areas mostly around Yorkshire. The fibre infrastructure was FibreNation which got abosrbed into CityFibre.

To the best of my knowledge, all of the old UFO Service is now dead. Upgrades were made in most places to bring the network up to CityFibre spec and TalkTalk customers were able to recontract to the CityFibre service at a higher cost, while Sky customers were completely kicked off the network altogether - Given the choice of finding a new ISP on CityFibre or to return to Openreach if they want to continue being served by Sky.

A cursory glance at Sky's forums would suggest that they discontinued UFO in late 2022.
 
UFO Was a joint partnership between Sky and TalkTalk in very limited areas mostly around Yorkshire. The fibre infrastructure was FibreNation which got abosrbed into CityFibre.

To the best of my knowledge, all of the old UFO Service is now dead. Upgrades were made in most places to bring the network up to CityFibre spec and TalkTalk customers were able to recontract to the CityFibre service at a higher cost, while Sky customers were completely kicked off the network altogether - Given the choice of finding a new ISP on CityFibre or to return to Openreach if they want to continue being served by Sky.

A cursory glance at Sky's forums would suggest that they discontinued UFO in late 2022.
My area was originally going to be TalkTalk/UFO when the fibre was built in my street. We got postal marketing materials in early 2020 saying it was about to go live and telling us to order UFO via the TalkTalk website (with no mention of Sky), but orders made by people never got processed/installed and nobody got a live service. I ordered and was even given an install date, but no installation, so I just stayed with Zen.

When the fibre eventually did go live (three years later!), it was under CityFibre with Vodafone and the usual range of ISPs. It was a long wait, but I'm glad we got CityFibre in the end, rather than the very limited single ISP service offered by UFO.
 
You guys make good points, you can never underestimate how little thought into their purchasing decisions average people make, not just non-techies but non-critical thinkers in general if I can put it this way (which most people are). They're perfectly fine paying more money for a worse product because... it works well enough and they can't be bothered to care or research or they bought into marketing or whatever.

And to be fair, a lot of people are quite busy, have families, some make a lot of money and don't care about efficient spending, they use their brain cycles for other things.
 
Sponsored Links
My guess (and it's only a guess) is that the London areas being prioritised are served from exchanges that Openreach wish to close and sell the site.

There is also a resource (at all parts of the process) constraint. You would like to generate (say) 5 years of work for the build teams within their patch (thus limiting travel costs) so you do an exchange area at a time.

The political aspect is about being "fair" in bringing the fibre benefit to both rural and urban areas in roughly the same proportion (rather than, say, leaving the rural areas until last).

There would be a case for trying to cover those with the slowest copper fed speeds with fibre first but I suspect that level of granularity would be troublesome for roll out planning so it's more a "broad brush" approach.
 
My guess (and it's only a guess) is that the London areas being prioritised are served from exchanges that Openreach wish to close and sell the site.

There is also a resource (at all parts of the process) constraint. You would like to generate (say) 5 years of work for the build teams within their patch (thus limiting travel costs) so you do an exchange area at a time.

The political aspect is about being "fair" in bringing the fibre benefit to both rural and urban areas in roughly the same proportion (rather than, say, leaving the rural areas until last).

There would be a case for trying to cover those with the slowest copper fed speeds with fibre first but I suspect that level of granularity would be troublesome for roll out planning so it's more a "broad brush" approach.
All makes sense, but what prompted me to post the thread was that it's a large contiguous patch of "not in our build yet" exchanges in the Northwestern quadrant of London, from around 9 to 12 o'clock if you will. You see it clearly when you zoom in the map. I don't know if it's just a coincidence but it makes me wonder what it is specifically about that section of London that's different. If it was all evenly distributed I wouldn't question anything.

It can easily be just a coincidence that it's contiguous like that though.

And are they really aiming to turn the whole map green by Dec 2026 because I don't see how that's gonna happen, especially Scotland.
 
And are they really aiming to turn the whole map green by Dec 2026 because I don't see how that's gonna happen, especially Scotland.
No. December 2026 is the date they want all their traditional phone lines switched off. Obviously copper lines are somewhat linked to this and Openreach aim to rollout more fibre by this date so they can make a start at retiring the old network and migrating everyone to the new technology. But there is no chance that the UK will be copper free by the end of 2026.

Even for me in a well populated area connected to a fairly large exchange - Not some village in the middle of nowhere, I’m not on their plans for a pre-2026 FTTP Build. So FTTC will remain for me, through the same copper lines, just with a digital telephone from any ISP I choose that’s using BT or their wholesale network to provide me a service.
 
"All makes sense, but what prompted me to post the thread was that it's a large contiguous patch of "not in our build yet" exchanges in the Northwestern quadrant of London, from around 9 to 12 o'clock if you will."

I see what you mean.

I don't have any knowledge of the Openreach geographic organisation (other than the public list of exchanges) but I wonder if it would make sense against (1) the first exchanges to close (2) the exchanges being retained long term to house fibre equipment and (3) some kind of sector based oranisation of Openreach in management terms.

I would, however, bet that there isn't much (if any) influence from which "Alt Nets" have built in an area.

It's essentially a 100% coverage plan for Openreach rather than any "cherry picking" and what will be wanted is an achievement of planned numbers covered rather than a reaction to other providers.

The interesting bit (yet to come in any significant way) is the "nudge" process of shifting those on copper (FTTC) to the fibre already installed in their area.
 
Top
Cheap BIG ISPs for 100Mbps+
Community Fibre UK ISP Logo
150Mbps
Gift: None
Virgin Media UK ISP Logo
Virgin Media £22.99
132Mbps
Gift: None
Vodafone UK ISP Logo
Vodafone £24.00 - 26.00
150Mbps
Gift: None
NOW UK ISP Logo
NOW £24.00
100Mbps
Gift: None
Plusnet UK ISP Logo
Plusnet £25.99
145Mbps
Gift: £50 Reward Card
Large Availability | View All
Cheapest ISPs for 100Mbps+
Gigaclear UK ISP Logo
Gigaclear £17.00
200Mbps
Gift: None
Community Fibre UK ISP Logo
150Mbps
Gift: None
Virgin Media UK ISP Logo
Virgin Media £22.99
132Mbps
Gift: None
Hey! Broadband UK ISP Logo
150Mbps
Gift: None
Youfibre UK ISP Logo
Youfibre £23.99
150Mbps
Gift: None
Large Availability | View All
Sponsored Links
The Top 15 Category Tags
  1. FTTP (6026)
  2. BT (3639)
  3. Politics (2721)
  4. Business (2439)
  5. Openreach (2405)
  6. Building Digital UK (2330)
  7. Mobile Broadband (2146)
  8. FTTC (2083)
  9. Statistics (1901)
  10. 4G (1816)
  11. Virgin Media (1764)
  12. Ofcom Regulation (1582)
  13. Fibre Optic (1467)
  14. Wireless Internet (1462)
  15. 5G (1407)
Sponsored

Copyright © 1999 to Present - ISPreview.co.uk - All Rights Reserved - Terms  ,  Privacy and Cookie Policy  ,  Links  ,  Website Rules