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Why not symetrical?

byertsy

Member
Hi all,
I have been a log time reader of ispreview but never joined, but needed to in order to ask about the connection in my area. I'm with Giganet using their FTTP and speeds are 1gbps down but only 100mbps up. Openreach installed this network around 2-3 years ago and there doesn't appear to be any news anywhere about when it will be symmetrical.

I'm curious to know why they wouldn't simply make it symmetrical, and whether there is a way to request this from my ISP (can they even do that or is it Openreach?), or what other ways there are to get a symmetrical connection in my area, as from my research all providers are stuck using Openreach's FTTP connection which has a limit of 100mbps across the board?

Thanks in advance.
 
Simply put, Openreach don’t support symmetric connections on their current FTTP platform.

Various reasons for this; party technical, historic, no immediate competitor pressure, cost, priority on wider national rollout, protection of leased line revenue etc.

There is a forthcoming Openreach trial with > Gbps download tiers - but is still asymmetric.

It’s not likely they will adopt symmetric plans until they deploy the next generation of active devices, either XGS-PON or beyond. However there is no clear view (or even hint) as to when this will be.
 
Booo! But thanks for the info.

That's such a shame as many areas are now getting awesome packages but because our area (Salisbury) was developed a few years ago it's very unlikely that new development will come our way any time soon. I'll keep my eyes peeled for XGS-PON in that case and keep my fingers crossed.

Is there a way to get business broadband or is that an impossibility in a residential setting?
 
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@JAYT

It's an interesting thread you have linked to but actually seems to be addressing a slightly different point.

The "BiDi" SFP (with the quoted cost difference) is one that works as a (typical) SFP (as used on business IT networks) but uses wavelength division multiplexing to transmit on one wavelength and receive on another thus fitting traffic in both directions on a single fibre core instead of the usual two.

The choice of upload speed vs download speed for Openreach is considerably more complex than just the SFP used.
 
I love my symmetrical 1Gb Community Fibre plan but the thruth is most people don't even know about that nor they care. Altnets are putting some pressure in BT/Openreach but like @Pheasant says there are many reasons as to why they don't offer symmetrical plans. Unless there is a real need for consumers to want higher upload speeds then ISPs will not develop the plans. Altnets have the advantage of starting from scratch and usually going for XGS-PON which mean that they can provide symmetrical speeds at no extra cost. But if you have a large network it's going to cost a lot of money to upgrade to XGS-PON for very little benefit. How many consumers would pay an extra £5 to have a symmetrical speed on Openreach? I bet not many. Most people are not even on the top 900mb plan. And if Openreach were to have symmetrical plans you can almost guarantee they would only do it on the top plan to force people to move to the higher tiers.
 
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It is my understanding OR FTTP installation (node) includes provision for a XGS-PON overlay over the same distribution fibres. In addition OR will move to XGS-PON for new FTTP when the price point and supply permit.

In addition once the FTTP networks mature and take-up is clear OR can then consider faster speeds and offering business Ultrafast symmetrical on SLA.
 
With older FTTP builds you can understand it. But they just installed the cables to my estate overhead on a series of brand new telegraph poles. Why build this using the old asymmetrical technology and not the new symmetrical one?
 
It's an absolute joke that there are no symmetric consumer-grade FTTP options from OR. The regulator should be enforcing it but they are a total waste of oxygen. The only hope is now is that altnets and VM will eventually kill off OR or force them to grow up and offer proper provisions, like pretty much every other developed nation that I have friends in.
I wouldn’t go as far as that. How many customers would you think would go for symmetrical speeds if they were available and had to pay more for it? I wouldn’t think that more than 5% if that. You can’t force a company to sell a product.
 
I wouldn’t go as far as that. How many customers would you think would go for symmetrical speeds if they were available and had to pay more for it? I wouldn’t think that more than 5% if that. You can’t force a company to sell a product.
OR does not even give that option, if we had the choice i think some people will pay a lil more for same download to upload.


CEO of Zen talks to OR CEO and askes the question why not symmetrical and he answers at 9:50 mins into the video.
 
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Hi,
With older FTTP builds you can understand it. But they just installed the cables to my estate overhead on a series of brand new telegraph poles. Why build this using the old asymmetrical technology and not the new symmetrical one?
I think you may misunderstand. The fibres they are installing are likely to be good to 25G symmetrical (and beyond when further technology is developed).

The only bits that limit the data transmission over those fibres are the bits at the ends (i.e. in the exchange and in the home). When Openreach want to offer something better than GPON then all they need to do is install the appropriate hardware in the exchange and install an appropriate ONT in the customers premises. The exchanges (and the faster network technologies) are designed so that that additional capability can be added without affecting existing customers.

It is installing the fibres that is the slow and expensive part, the bits at either end are a lot easier to upgrade.
 
Hi,
This "who needs that" attitude bemuses me. You might not need more speed, less latency, faster upload, whatever it might be, but other people do. There should be an option and a wider range of offerings, even it means paying more. There simply should be the choice for those who want it.
There is a wide range of options (in ascending estimated order of cost):
  1. Go to an altnet who offer symmetrical connections.
  2. Buy a leased line.
  3. Pay a nearby altnet to extend their network to you.
  4. Install your own fibre to a local data centre or other point of interconnection.
  5. Open you own altnet and do it all yourself.
  6. Pay Openreach to offer a special product just for you.
All of those options meet your requirements - can you clarify what you are complaining about?
 
Hi,

There is a wide range of options (in ascending estimated order of cost):
  1. Go to an altnet who offer symmetrical connections.
  2. Buy a leased line.
  3. Pay a nearby altnet to extend their network to you.
  4. Install your own fibre to a local data centre or other point of interconnection.
  5. Open you own altnet and do it all yourself.
  6. Pay Openreach to offer a special product just for you.
All of those options meet your requirements - can you clarify what you are complaining about?
Hehe. Well 1 & 2 are real. I've not heard of any Altnet offering their own version of "FTTP On Demand" that would be interesting, but I've never heard of it.

4, 5 and 6 are a bit of fantasy football.
 
If these posts are right, Openreach have made a business decision to limit upstream speeds for the foreseeable future in return for a saving of £5 per household.


If that's right, it seems short-sighted to say the least.

That comment has a few inaccuracies, doesn't directly address this issue, and has some incorrect assumptions both about how the networks were being built at that time and how they would evolve.
 
That comment has a few inaccuracies, doesn't directly address this issue, and has some incorrect assumptions both about how the networks were being built at that time and how they would evolve.
Plus if that’s right, then £5 x about 30 million is a fair chunk of change that could be spent elsewhere.
 
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It is my understanding OR FTTP installation (node) includes provision for a XGS-PON overlay over the same distribution fibres. In addition OR will move to XGS-PON for new FTTP when the price point and supply permit.

In addition once the FTTP networks mature and take-up is clear OR can then consider faster speeds and offering business Ultrafast symmetrical on SLA.

Yes - the OLTs in exchanges all go into a co-existence element for the express purpose of having a port available for XGSPON so that they can just plug in new OLTs / line cards and connect them to that element.

CityFibre and I imagine most others do the same. To do anything else would be a bad idea.
 
It's an absolute joke that there are no symmetric consumer-grade FTTP options from OR. The regulator should be enforcing it but they are a total waste of oxygen. The only hope is now is that altnets and VM will eventually kill off OR or force them to grow up and offer proper provisions, like pretty much every other developed nation that I have friends in.
Why should a regulator be enforcing the products that a provider sells? That's a huge overstep.
 
CEO of Zen talks to OR CEO and askes the question why not symmetrical and he answers at 9:50 mins into the video.
Nothing surprising he said is there?

Essentially customers in healthy numbers are still buying the GPON-based product...therefore we feel no immediate/urgent need to migrate to XGS, and we'll do when we need to and not before. They have other more pressing business and rollout priorities. A pretty sensible business decision.

Virtually every Altnet does not have *other* (very significant) symmetric-capable revenue generating products (as Openreach do with Ethernet) that supplant their FTTP offerings. Therefore if you're making money on "A" and customer are still happy to buy "B" why change until you have to. Again a pretty sensible business decision.
 
Hi,
Hehe. Well 1 & 2 are real. I've not heard of any Altnet offering their own version of "FTTP On Demand" that would be interesting, but I've never heard of it.

4, 5 and 6 are a bit of fantasy football.
3 is based on an assumption that most companies (especially those desperate for money) have a price (I suspect that price might be at least 6 figures though, depending on circumstance). 4 is a possibility if you happen to live (literally) next to a data centre and it has a tenant willing to deal with you (probably quite a small demographic!).

Overall it depends how much money / political power the poster has available to them. I'm sure that if the government decided that Openreach providing an XGS-PON connection to an isolated cottage in the Welsh mountains was somehow critical to the nation's security then it could be made to happen. Similarly, if your surname happens to be Gates, Bezos, Musk or Buffett, for example (although they would probably be sensible enough to realise that a leased line would do the job just as well, if not better).

Whilst I do appear to be spiralling into silliness, the point is that it is not a question of whether there are choices, it is whether the people asking for those choices can afford them.

There are lots of things I would like but cannot afford, internet provision is no different.
 
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