Winter power cuts and broadband

[chris523586]

According to press reports the government is seriously considering the possibility of power cuts in winter. Given the noises being made by some of the countries we depend on for imported power (Norway, France etc.) I think this is a realistic possibility.

I believe this is referred to as “load shedding” where different parts of the country will take turns at sharing the available power.

Do Openreach, Virgin or CitiFibre equipment have batteries in any of the street boxes? What is the liklihood that services would continue in the event of a power outage?

I’ve noticed a CityFibre site in Dewsbury (near to where I live) that looks to have some quite hefty generators in front of several portacabins.

I’m curious to hear peoples thoughts on which of the broadband infrastructure provides have batteries or generators??

Chris

 

[dabigm]

I've never seen OR deploy batteries. But then again i'm just a private citizen I don't work for OR nor have I ever done, but I have worked for an ISP that relied upon them. I've not seen or read any batteries being deployed. Having said that, they certainly do have generators, LNG/CNG/fuel cells but these are only meant to sustain power during a temporary cut. So I don't think this is going to help us.

Thinking out loud, mobile networks are likely to remain up. Because not only do we rely on them, but emergency services do too. Whereas broadband delivered via CATV/Twisted pair could very well go down. Where I live is kinda semi-rural (I say it's semi rural but we've got a few hundred houses around us, but all the local services have 4x4 vehicles put it that way) and Virgin Media has gone completely down during power cuts here. I know because I've got my Hub 4 modem connected to a UPS that can quite happily sustain it for about 4 hours. I built it for this exact reason, to be able to ride out the frequent power-cuts/brown outs etc. And each time we lose power, we lose VM too. Now that might not be true for everyone so i'd like to hear other opinions on that. We've also seen three 5G go out during powercuts. I presume this is down to the mast / equipment giving us 5G not having a backup? but we still had 4G.

I work inside a very large data centre, supplied by it's own power station too (Slough) and we have backups for everything here. But if the grid were to go down for an extended period, we'd be just as up the creek as everyone else after a few days. And I can tell you for 100% certain there are ISPs that run out of the same data centres I work in.

I think we're not in a good situation to be frank. I think we might be able to get basic slow mobile services in an extended blackout, but I'd be surprised if regular broadband was working. But... I dunno ? as I said before, I'm just thinking out loud

I would like to think that we'd be able to keep wired broadband simply for the fact that it runs over people's telephone lines. And phone lines are required for emergencies.

I think houses are pretty low down on the list of who to cut off during a cut, but then again i've read the opposite more than once on the web.

 

[dabigm]

Should probably also add when I say i haven't seen batteries deployed, I mean like giant ones. Like Tesla's pro one (forgot it's name, but not the powerwall, the giant rack ones). I have seen single (usually AGM) batteries and UPSs used by OR.

 

[scoobyjones1]

According to press reports the government is seriously considering the possibility of power cuts in winter. Given the noises being made by some of the countries we depend on for imported power (Norway, France etc.) I think this is a realistic possibility.

I believe this is referred to as “load shedding” where different parts of the country will take turns at sharing the available power.

Do Openreach, Virgin or CitiFibre equipment have batteries in any of the street boxes? What is the liklihood that services would continue in the event of a power outage?

I’ve noticed a CityFibre site in Dewsbury (near to where I live) that looks to have some quite hefty generators in front of several portacabins.

I’m curious to hear peoples thoughts on which of the broadband infrastructure provides have batteries or generators??

Chris

Well even if the isp's manage to keep sending out broadband, don't forget people's routers will go off...not something we had to deal with in the 70s! Kids will scream blue murder!!
Of course you might be able to use your phone as a hot spot for a few hours...you could add power banks to keep them going but what would people be able to do? No play stations would run, no PC's, laptops maybe for a few hours...phones yes..but no streaming, no Netflix...
The outcry would be enormous, so much so that I don't think it will happen in the UK. Possibly in countries that rely on Putin's gas or oil in order to generate electricity but I think in the UK we should be ok.
Skint...but ok! ;-)

 

[Lucian]

It's going to be interesting times.. Even if power won't go down, paying £400+/m on energy will make life very difficult and for some even desperate.
Won't be surprised if we see social unrest and this might just be the crisis to bring the Tories down, so maybe we'll get a Labour gov at some stage.

 

[Mark.J]

It's an interesting question and, if anything, I think the Government would need to start consulting with more than just power companies if this became a reality. Much would also depend upon the type and length of outages.

Right now, there are a lot of unknowns, but if this were to happen, then I'd of course be knocking on all the usual doors to figure out how ISPs and network operators will respond. We haven't really been in this situation before, at least not in terms of modern broadband and mobile networks, and on a national scale.

I consider myself quite lucky to be running a solar and battery powered home, but it's still grid-tied and that means we're impacted when the mains goes off too. I've got some portable power stations and UPS, though, which may come in handy.

 

[kommando828]

it's still grid-tied and that means we're impacted when the mains goes off too

There are legitimate ways to arrange this, first is an isolation switch between incoming feed and the consumer unit, I have one of these so I can run off a generator. Then you need either an inverter than has an off grid setting or you use a battery and small inverter to inject a 240V supply so the grid tie inverter thinks the mains is back on.

There are also grid tie inverters, mainly hybrids as it really only works with batteries, that will monitor the line and stop any out going feed. If whatever they use for monitoring fails, eg a CT clamp, then the inverter reverts to grid tie and you lose power.

Regardless of what you come up with then there must be no way 240v can be fed back into the main supply so any linesman is protected.

 

[clivejo]

Won't be surprised if we see social unrest and this might just be the crisis to bring the Tories down, so maybe we'll get a Labour gov at some stage.

Like that will help things! Same policies, different colours! This is what happens when successive Governments put all their eggs in one basket (wind, solar and gas). Doesn't take an "expert" to think "hmmmm I wonder how do we all charge our electric cars and power the heat pumps on a dark, cold, sill winters night" Not only have they decommissioned the coal power stations they have blown them up and destroyed most of them! Anyone with an ounce of common sense would have molt balled them. Same goes for gas storage, I think all but one were decommissioned prior to Feb 2022.

And it isn't just the UK these reports are being aired, it's all over Europe! Ireland are making the same warnings too.

Fingers crossed a major break through in nuclear can be made, either safer, small modular fission or significantly net positive fusion.

 

[clivejo]

you use a battery and small inverter to inject a 240V supply so the grid tie inverter thinks the mains is back on.

Have you tried that? I'd reckon that would result in the release of the "magic smoke" from fried FETs!

Thankfull my inverter can run off grid and supplement backup power like a generator to start larger loads. If I can fix my diesel "start-a-matic" which seems to have stopped generating for some reason!

 

[chris523586]

It's been interesting reading the replies to my original post. It appears I'm not the only individual having these thoughts around energy and equipment redundancy.

Interestingly, I read today that Kosovo is already experiencing rolling blackouts because they can't afford to import energy (and it's only August - just imagine what Winter could bring ...)

As someone who works from home (possibly like many other I.T. professionals that use these boards?), I've given some thought to internet connectivity redundancy. My main ISP is Virgin (excellent service) but I'm giving thought to taking out a cheap subscription with Vodafone/CitiFibre which will shortly be available to my house. Maybe a backup 5G router would be a better bet?

In respect of power, someone mentioned power stations and I've already bought a Jackery. I might buy a couple more of similar devices. I've also purchased a small generator (the "Mighty Atom" from Challenger if anyone has heard of them).

Ideally, I'd like to get some home storage batteries (the likes of Tesla Powerwall, Pure Drive etc.) but right now it's a struggle to get stock of such products.

 

[dabigm]

You can build yourself a UPS really cheap to be honest. I use a renogy UPS inverter. It plugs into batteries and the mains and swaps to batteries in the event the mains dies. Waaaaaay cheaper than the likes of Powerwalls and Jackery/ecoflow

 

[Disgruntled of Dankshire]

As usual the government are woefully unprepared for any disaster.
Let’s look at the current plans from our soon to be deposed leader.
Wind power, nope doesn’t work when there is no wind
Solar, nope doesn’t work at night.
A reactor every year, don’t think so, will take ages to ensure they are safe

Tidal power, too scary for the government to consider, but it works as long as we have a moon.
Some will say it’s too expensive, well its not now.
Tidal power could be used to supplement our pitiful nuclear power output,
provide hydrogen during the night to supplement the gas.


Gas, there is the conundrum, we produce and sell it. We only get 4% from the new Soviet Union,why are we in the gas market? it’s to make profits for investors.
Any way our largest storage facility, Rough is not operational due to a squabble.

Internet, not a hope, didn’t see any batteries when I last looked into my local dslam.


Mobile, well hopefully there will be a signal.


POTS, exchanges at the moment have battery backup, so hopefully I can make a 999 call.

Me, got a generator, saved the day when I lost power for three days.
(Genny’s seem to be getting a bit rare I noticed the other day)
Sufficient to keep the emergency lights on, the tv running for all those wonderful calming messages that will be transmitted by TPTB.

And people say I am a cynic

ps

GB Fuel type power generation production

GridWatch | Live statistic of UK National Electricity grid by type of generation | Solar PV power Generation | Coal Stations output in Gigawatts | Wind Output Gigawatts | Nuclear energy output |Biomass power generation Output

gridwatch.co.uk

 

[Mark.J]

As usual the government are woefully unprepared for any disaster.

Agreed, but to be fair, when it comes to energy security you could extend that criticism to most of the countries in Europe. Too much dependence upon Russia energy and not enough forward planning, or work on storage solutions, remains a common problem.

As usual, it's the consumers who are left to pick up the tab.

 

[kommando828]

Have you tried that? I'd reckon that would result in the release of the "magic smoke" from fried FETs!

Thankfull my inverter can run off grid and supplement backup power like a generator to start larger loads. If I can fix my diesel "start-a-matic" which seems to have stopped generating for some reason!

I have a ready made solution for smoke depletion. Works on AC and DC circuits.

 

[Disgruntled of Dankshire]

Agreed, but to be fair, when it comes to energy security you could extend that criticism to most of the countries in Europe. Too much dependence upon Russia energy and not enough forward planning, or work on storage solutions, remains a common problem.

As usual, it's the consumers who are left to pick up the tab.

Sadly you are correct, however the UK could have used some of the revenue to build renewable energy sooner, but it would appear to have been squandered. France heavily invested in nuclear, but they suffered during the heat wave. UK was exporting electricity to them.

For an upto date gas picture, see

Gas Infrastructure Europe - AGSI

agsi.gie.eu

As usual, it's the consumers who are left to pick up the tab.
Of course, the government has no money, its all ours, so its a bit rude when they wanted to lend (not give) some of it back to us to pay our energy bills. Really not a vote winner, and luckily they spotted the error and decided not to charge interest.

 

[maninman]

You can build yourself a UPS really cheap to be honest. I use a renogy UPS inverter. It plugs into batteries and the mains and swaps to batteries in the event the mains dies. Waaaaaay cheaper than the likes of Powerwalls and Jackery/ecoflow

What applications are you planning to use this on? Just wondering if 1000W output will be sufficient (not for kettle of course).
This setup really inspired me as we can buy multiple car batteries at reasonably low cost. Second hand's even cheaper!

 

[dabigm]

What applications are you planning to use this on? Just wondering if 1000W output will be sufficient (not for kettle of course).
This setup really inspired me as we can buy multiple car batteries at reasonably low cost. Second hand's even cheaper!

This is just to literally keep my and my family online. It powers a virgin media router, a PoE switch that runs my CCTV cameras, two wireless access points and my laptop. I can run on that battery shown for about 4 hours with all of that. Of course I can just bolt on another one if I need more (and I will be doing that pretty soon - already ordered the extra batts)

I had also thought about buying another one for the fridge/freezer because we have a lot of power issues here regardless of present market conditions. They also make a 3000W one.

 

[clivejo]

I know it says pure sine but is it really? I take it starts recharging the batteries when the power comes back on?

 

[Bob2002]

Agreed, but to be fair, when it comes to energy security you could extend that criticism to most of the countries in Europe. Too much dependence upon Russia energy and not enough forward planning, or work on storage solutions, remains a common problem.

As usual, it's the consumers who are left to pick up the tab.

It's definitely not just the UK, Germany shut down its nuclear reactors and bet everything on Russian gas(yes Trump told them not to and was laughed at), the majority of France’s 56 nuclear reactors are currently throttled down or taken offline due to a combination of scheduled maintenance, erosion damage (worryingly, mostly at the newer plants of the ageing fleet) and cooling water shortages due to recurring heatwaves and droughts.

In 2010/11 Nick Clegg was saying we shouldn't build nuclear because it would take until 2020.

I really can't take anyone seriously who is against nuclear(despite France's current issues).

 

[dabigm]

I know it says pure sine but is it really? I take it starts recharging the batteries when the power comes back on?

It does not charge the batteries at all. It's not a charger unfortunately. I use a regular charger for that. And yeah, you can keep the charger connected while it's discharging

and yep, it is pure sinewave. My cheap oscilloscope says it's cleaner than grid power