Confusion Over UK Broadband ISP TalkTalk’s Stealthy £4 TV Charge
Customers of UK broadband ISP TalkTalk have been left frustrated and confused by a mysterious new £4 monthly “Access Fee” to use the operator’s TV platform (YouView based IPTV set-top-box), which seems to apply even if the subscriber isn’t taking one of their optional premium TV boosts (content packages).
A quick look through the ISP’s Community Forum this week makes for uncomfortable reading and reveals a large number of topics where customers are complaining about the charge, which Thinkbroadband has also spotted. The charge itself appears as if it will crop up on bills automatically, provided you have one of the provider’s YouView based set-top-boxes.
However what’s really got TalkTalk’s customers riled up is the fact that they seem to get hit with it even if they aren’t taking one of the premium TV content plans / boosts. As a result a large number of customers who have purchased a TalkTalk branded set-top-box or took a TV bundle but later downgraded and kept the box, are being hit with the fee.
In essence users in the above group are being asked to pay £4 each month just to access the box itself (kind of like a hardware rental), which is not an approach that has gone down well.
TalkTalk User R2223 said:
“I do not use any TalkTalk TV add on’s or boosts and don’t ever intend to use them in the future so could you please remove TalkTalk TV from my package as I do not wan’t to be charged £4 a month from the 18th February for basically nothing. I believe my account details are already linked here so if someone could action this I would appreciate it.”
TalkTalk User perrycrofts said:
“My account indicates I don’t have TalkTalk TV but I have been sent an email stating I will be charged £4 from next month for it. I don’t want the TV package. Can someone ensure I am not charged for a service I don’t want.”
TalkTalk User Stevendm said:
“I got the email, and thought I wasn’t meant to have any increase in cost for the duration on my contract, turns out this only applies to broadband cost not tv part, thought this was a bit sneaky so contacted customer services. Then found out I could opt out but keep my current tv package. 80 channels, PVR, on demand players.
So turns out all good for me but I think it’s a bit underhand charging extra for services that don’t apply to me and putting the onus on me to opt out. And I think saying in the email you are free to opt out of TalkTalk TV at any time suggests you’re going to lose all your tv which isn’t the case.
This will no doubt lead to people just sucking up the £4 increase. If anyone cares to disagree I have my customer service chat transcript.”
TalkTalk User Freda said:
“I agree the whole thing is quite bizarre and I have never heard of anything like this before – being charged a fee simply to access telly that you then have to pay for. And further, to unilaterially apply the fee to people who do not currently use these services and make them have to phone or chat to get it removed. As I said, I have never come across anything quite like this before.
And I agree the letters (I got a snail-mail letter, not an email for some reason) have turned out to be quite misleading and without the help of posts here, I would not have had a clue what the £4 charge was actually for or the consequences of asking for it to be removed.”
Freeview PVR boxes can be taken quite cheaply now, without needing to use TalkTalk’s kit, and we’re thus surprised the ISP would seek to discourage use of their hardware in this way as it’s a useful promotional tool. People may be more likely to take a TalkTalk TV content boost in the future if they’re using the ISP’s kit.
As if to further confuse matters, TalkTalk has said that the £4 charge is effectively optional and customers can opt-out. “You do not have to pay the TV Access Fee, if you do not specifically use any of the TalkTalk TV services or boosts you can request this fee is not applied,” said a member of the ISP’s support team.
OCE_Karl, TalkTalk’s Community Support Team Member, said:
“The Access Fee encompasses all of TalkTalk TV Services. I do appreciate that all customers receive the freeview channels one way or another as these are over the air, but having the TV box does then provide the ability to record these, in addition to pause and rewind live TV.
Besides the set top box, the fee also encompasses other aspects of the service such as the ability to add and remove TV boosts with no lengthy contracts, just a 1 month commitment. Access to the TalkTalk TV player where we have some great content, and on the go access via the website and our Mobile App. TalkTalk have invested significantly in our TV product over the past year, and continue to do so. Our TV Teams are always working to secure more services, negotiate more great content for our customers, whilst at the same time ensuring we remain excellent value.
I can also appreciate that some of our customers may be unhappy with the TV Access Fee, and I’ve never seen anyone say they are happy with any Fee or billing change, but in an ever changing and expanding marketplace we must strive to provide the best service, with the best selection of services possible to our customers, so they have a great selection of choice at great value. Sometimes these things are necessary.
If you do decide that you do not want to access any of the great TalkTalk TV services we have to offer, please let me know so that I can action this for you.”
Quite why TalkTalk thought it would be a good promotional idea to lump this on customers is unclear, but we suspect it won’t do much for their complaint volumes. The ISP has been top of Ofcom’s broadband gripes table for awhile, although so far they’ve managed to keep just below BT and Virgin Media for Pay TV complaints and that may now change (here).
So just to be clear. TalkTalk say this charge is only applicable if you use (or have the ability to use) the premium TV Boosts, hence why they apply it by default. However, if all you do is record Freeview, watch catch-up or rent films then you should be able to opt out of the charge.
The fact that customers actually have to go through the hassle of trying to opt-out of a charge, which they obviously wouldn’t want to pay if they don’t have to, doesn’t seem particularly customer friendly or indeed wise.
UPDATE 10:28am
The TalkTalk website has a related FAQ Page for the change, which separately notes that their £4 per month charge for Multi-room TV is being removed. Good, except.. uh.. for that new £4 charge they’re adding? Mixed messages galore.
UPDATE 10:51am
We’ve had a new statement from TalkTalk’s press office. The ISP further noted that TalkTalk TV customers will also soon benefit from a £5 TalkTalk TV voucher to be redeemed against 1,000s of films in Rent of Own (vouchers go live on 1st February).
A TalkTalk Spokesperson said:
“We’ve been investing heavily in our TV service over the past two years to deliver large-scale tech updates and product innovations that bring real benefits to the customer experience, as well as adding more great content. Whilst making such improvements has resulted in a price change, TalkTalk TV continues to offer fantastic value for money and customers can save up to £216 a year vs BT, Sky and Virgin Media.”
Mark is a professional technology writer, IT consultant and computer engineer from Dorset (England), he also founded ISPreview in 1999 and enjoys analysing the latest telecoms and broadband developments. Find me on X (Twitter), Mastodon, Facebook and Linkedin.
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I pay for a talk talk account for my grandad and gran so he can watch sky and BT sports and their entertainment boost channels. He has COPD and doesn’t get out at all so these channels represent a life line of relieving boredom and stress. Though we don’t have a recordable box. Just a Huawei non recordable. Do think outlined above the reasons for them including this charge would give any credence to me requesting a recordable one from them for fre?
I have a complaint. You supplied me with broadband services which ultimately did not work. I told you to switch them off. You keep contacting me threatening to switch them off!! Pleased to see you at once. [admin note: please do not post personal contact details in the comments].
you already pay an access fee to watch television, its called a tv license.
its a joke, just like talk talk.
The same goes for every TV provider then, considering you have to pay a charge to BT, Virgin and Sky also for use of their services and or products..
Talk Talk really believe the saying “any publicity is good publicity” don’t they!
Lol, Rip off britain the Brits will bend over and take this again.
New Walk Walk campaign is coming.
Am I the only one supporting the charge? You were sent the TV box for free, but you don’t use TalkTalk TV and never intend to use it. Be so kind and return the box then! If you don’t, pay the fee. TalkTalk is the cheaper end ISP, it doesn’t have the money to give away free TV boxes.
No you are not the only one to think that way. I tend to agree especially when if you have a TV service from BT, Virgin, and Sky you in some fashion also pay for the box. For 2 out of those 3 (BT and Virgin) you are also supposed to return the box if you cancel the TV service or dont use it.
Im actually surprised Talk Talk if they are youview boxes have waited so long to do this, especially if they have previously handed them out like smarties.
Its funny people (or should i be more accurate and say stupid people) like to grab something when its free, even if they have no use for it, ask them to pay for something though and suddenly that makes the supplier evil.
What a load of rubbish.
If Talk Talk didn’t say up-front when they supplied the box that there would be a charge, they don’t have a leg to stand on. Also, unless the T&C’s say that the box needs to be returned, there is no reason to.
They took a gamble that handing out boxes willy nilly would result in profit later on and it hasn’t turned out that way, so they suddenly introduce this stealth charge.
Seems like I’m picking on Talk Talk lately I suppose?
What are you on about? I paid for my box.
You fail at understanding how these things work really.
It was never “Free” to anyone.
£26 a month for TT for two years. That’s £4 more a month than with similar planes on other providers, and £9 a month more than broadband alone. So the “Free” part is paid for by higher subscription cost, longer contract times, and lots of other little things that add up to pay for that box. The TT box would have cost them about £35 max, and if I recall correctly many people paid £25 “Delivery” and £25 “Setup” for those boxes in the early days. In essence, you paid £15 more than the “Free” item was worth. They say the box is worth £200 or whatever, but that’s just to make people feel they are getting something for nothing.
“If Talk Talk didn’t say up-front when they supplied the box that there would be a charge, they don’t have a leg to stand on. Also, unless the T&C’s say that the box needs to be returned, there is no reason to.”
Talk Talk Terms state…
16 MAKING CHANGES
16.1 We may need to change your services, equipment, charges or agreement for legal, regulatory or business reasons.
With regards to equipment and whether you ownit depends on multiple things including how long you have been with them, if the equipment was provided as part of a new service or not. Terms also state with regards to equipment you agree to “install, keep and use any necessary equipment at your home” You have no issue with the “keep” part but unfortunately you do seem to be having an issue with the “use” part. If you wish to argue you are using it just not for any of their pay TV services, you still lose as the terms say they can…. “enter your premises for the connection, maintenance, modification, replacement or removal of any such equipment”
Or short version, they can take the box back anytime they please. Perhaps in future it would be an idea to read the T&C first rather than assume/hope you know what they say.
I bought a BT youview box from John Lewis. I’ve had to ring up twice, 30 minutes a call, to have this charge removed. No email warning.so changed providers. Been a customer since they began. Mess with me once, ok it happens. Twice?
eM said “Am I the only one supporting the charge? You were sent the TV box for free, but you don’t use TalkTalk TV and never intend to use it. Be so kind and return the box then! If you don’t, pay the fee. TalkTalk is the cheaper end ISP, it doesn’t have the money to give away free TV boxes.”
I am sorry, but you are wrong. You only get the box if you have signed up for the TV Service and paid for it every month, and you paid for it over and over again, until your box packs up, and you cancelled the subscription. So, nothing was free. The BBC Freeview service is paid for with the TV licence fee.
My cousin paid a fortune for his box over time, and talktalk would not even replace it when it went wrong, as those boxes frequently do, due to manufacturing faults (no or too little heatsink compound) and cheap components. So, he was paying for a service that was not supplied anymore.
The Freeview service is free and has nothing to do with talktalk, who just put some Firmware into a Huawei box. It is the Huawei box that facilitates the recording and access to catch-up TV, not talktalk, and you can buy a new box for £60-70 on eBay.
By your logic, you would have to pay talktalk if you have a BT box, a Humax box, a Panasonic box or recorder, Pioneer box, Philips box, LG box, Samsung box or recorder etc.; this could get very expensive indeed. The TV programmes are FREE-TO-AIR. not for talktalk to charge for a service they do not provide. This £4 charge cannot be levied if you have not signed up for the service and have not received a box from talktalk. as it is fraudulent to charge for a service without you having signed a contract (watch out for Rip-off Britain).
The other point is the price increases: talktalk have increased the price of their Broadband package by nearly £4 a month, even though they have stated over and over again that they do increase the price during the length of the contract. So, they owe us all quite a few ponds.
The other problem is the broadband speed: it never reaches the 39-40 mb/s they promise in their contracts; that constitutes a breach of contract. They deliberately reduce your speed in your profile; so, much for never slowing you down. Maybe they have not enough bandwidth or too many customers. This is another obvious and deliberate breach of contract.
For those who have not understood the principle involved: Imagine you have bought a car from a dealer on finance. So, after having paid for it, the dealer wants you to keep on paying for the privilege of buying it from him, or the finance company wants the car back. Got it!
Regards
I bought my Talktalk box. I don’t watch any of their channels. It worked OK on BT! And on Talktalk.
They didn’t send me an email about the charge.
They have agreed to remove it and refund me the charges I’ve already paid.
If you read into it, this charge has been applied to those who have their own boxes and also some who do not have a TV package and never have had (are they the stupid ones to which you refer?)
Also, most people on TalkTalk are on a fixed price contract which stated no price rises during the contract, the contract was for phone, tv and broadband, now TalkTalk say the TV is a separate contract, not the first time they have either changed the pricing or the benefits during the contract period.
By all means, they can change the pricing structure but if someone can get a better deal because of the change during their contract, they should be released from the contract without penalty.
I’ve said it elsewhere that none of the communications providers are to be trusted and this is a good example of why.
“If you read into it, this charge has been applied to those who have their own boxes and also some who do not have a TV package and never have had (are they the stupid ones to which you refer?)”
NO if you read into it the charge is applied to either
A) those that have a Talk Talk TV box or
B) those that have their own box but use ANY of Talk Talks TV services on it.
Its quite clear in the news item which states “TalkTalk say this charge is only applicable if you use (or have the ability to use) the premium TV Boosts, hence why they apply it by default.”
If you do not have a box, have not used their TV services with your own box and have no way to do so (IE you do not have Youview of any type and all you have from Talk Talk is a Modem) then you can freely contact them to have any additional charge for TV parts removed.
If anyone can not understand something that simple them yes id call them stupid… Or in most cases just self entitled cry babies because they ain’t no longer getting a free ride.
My partner and I both cancelled Talktalk TV 2-3 years ago, returned our unreliable TalkTalk Youview boxes which needed constant rebooting, and purchased BT retail Youview boxes. Neither of us have ever used any TT TV boosts or paid content. We both just received notification of the £4 charge for a service to which we are not subscribed and had explicitly cancelled. Having to opt out in these circumstances is taking the p***. Bit like being charged for a car park in London when you live in Glasgow, and having to opt out of paying when you never parked there.
I also returned 2 of their new Wi-Fi Hubs with flaky and poorly tested firmware and both with hardware faults, and bought a decent retail router.
They may be the cheapest UK ISP, but you pay the difference in hassle and customer service stress.
“My partner and I both cancelled Talktalk TV 2-3 years ago”
“We both just received notification of the £4 charge for a service to which we are not subscribed and had explicitly cancelled.”
Err if for the past 2-3 years you have not been a customer, then i find your story highly unlikely. In fact any payment details they had for you (IE credit card/debit card numbers and/or expiry date or Direct debit information and its rules for continual billing) would no longer be valid for them to take any payments at all regardless.
Good Story though.
Answer to davidj’s reply
You did not read Disgruntled’s e-mail correctly, He stated that they cancelled the TV Services, not the broadband. Of course, talktalk is still entitled to take money from them, but not for the TV Service. Most of the time, talktalk do not even want the “flaky boxes” back, hence you can buy them cheaply on eBay Disgruntled has reason to be disgruntled, as is everybody who has no valid contract for TV Services and who is being charged for it. This £4 charge will backfire on talktalk. Whatever next?
Regards
As i feared despite promises from talk talk that my contract was fixed it seems like its going up which may enable leaving easier
just got off the phone to Talk Talk ,
I explained it was a breach of contract as when I was sold the box (£25) I was told no further charges.
They have “said” they will not be charging me the extra four pounds ….
we shall see ???
I have made it a complaint rather than a rant so I have a case number and “names” ha ha ..
Patrick and Pamela yeah I bet lol.
I have the same problem with the £4.00 increase. However, looking at talktalks t&cs (section 16) I found as follows;
We may need to change your services,equipment, charges or agreement for legal, regulatory or business reasons. If so we,ll tell you about this in writing or by publishing a notice or updated t&cs.
If a change is to your material detriment we,ll give you at least 30 days written notice. If you object you may end your agreement without charge (other than accrued charges) provided you contact us within 30 days of the notification.
Surely this gives customers the right to opt out?
“Surely this gives customers the right to opt out?”
Yep if you do not have a TV box or use their TV services and they were to insist that you still pay the £4 it would be of detriment and you would be able to leave.
a few years ago talktalk said to me “please don’t leave us, here have a TV box for free” and now they are saying “you know that free TV box we gave you, well its £4 a month now” and so I say “no thank you, come and collect your box” and they say “you can keep the box and we won’t charge you £4″….er “what was the £4 meant to be for then ?”
Id say if they let you keep anything you are supposed to be charged for, then it is a gesture of good will. They also would not come to collect your box, they would ask you to send it back (probably provide you a returns label see their is no postage cost to you). Unfortunately they do not have millions of staff to nip round to the hundreds, thousands or even millions of users to physically “collect” anything.
It’s a massive try on
No its massively common sense.
Same experience.£4.00 charge for what? I am livid! I have two “fixed price” contracts with Talk Talk. My own You View box and like every body else I pay my TV licence. This is massive try on possibility not lawful. I plan to cancel my direct debit and move to manual payments. Once my contract expires I will leaving Talk Talk
The TV licence has nothing to do with it, do you think because you pay a TV licence you can also go and have Sky, Virgin, BT extra equipment and access to services for free?
Contracts are not fixed price either……… You are another that needs to read the terms.
I managed to get Sky Sports boost for £15 a month when it was on a special offer. I thought this was brilliant, now I’m effectively going to be paying £19 for the same thing, making the special offer not as attractive. Seriously considering cancelling the Sky Sports boost and opting out of the £4 charge. Don’t understand why TalkTalk would do this, lots of people will be opting out of their boosts now. They will lose £180 a year from me .. multiply that by a lot of customers.
I have just spent 20 minutes on the chat line and have had the tv charge removed . I keep the box and can use it to watch freeview if I wish . It was a very easy transaction
Me too. Took 50minutes though – good thing it was Chat
I have all the symptoms of emphysema and chronic bronchitis; chest tightness and back pain, coughing blood, shortness of breath when I exercise, and always tired. Overinflated lungs is all that shows on x-ray but I cannot get diagnosed with anything, and cannot get the right medication. My symptoms get worse when I go the city with the smog and near the ocean and gas heaters and cooking smells. So as you can imagine, everyone tells me it is in my head; definitely not. I have been perfectly fine up until 4 years ago when all this started. I don’t know where to turn to next. I had bronchoscopy, CT chest scan, MRI of back (for the pain); my symptoms just are not getting better. I have seen 3 respiratory doctors and all say there is no cure, I cannot work out what’s happening. I was checking on internet when i saw a forum were Mr Lingard Ellis wrote about Solution Health Herbal Clinic who cures all kind of disease so i had to contact this clinic on their email on info solutionhealthherbalclinic . com I purchase a natural herbs from this clinic which they sent through courier. You can do the same. As long as it works for me, it will work for you too. Here’s their website: http //solutionhealthherbalclinic . com/contact/index . html
I’m sorry to hear abut your ills, but I think you are on the wrong forum! This about Talktalk’s TV charges.
I am a newish Sept 2018 BB and Talk customer to TalkTalk, never took the TV or was sent the box yet I have got this £4 charge I now need to contact TalkTalk to remove, I am not sure if they have just give this to everyone or be using a ex BT Youview box has some how
enabled something.
I was worried my Talktalk Youview box would stop working and spent 50 minutes on a talktalk online chat trying to get clarity. After going around in circles for ages the employee confirmed that the youview box would stop working and a bag would be sent within a couple of weeks for its return.
I’m pleased to report that the contract is cancelled, the youview box still works (although the on demand talktalk service has finished but I never used it anyway) the talktalk app with the TV guide and recording facility still works and sufficient time has passed to know that talktalk are not wanting the box back.
It’s worth knowing that you can cancel the tv package and/or cancel the whole contract and still watch tv on the youview box.
Talk Talk suck, I moved house recently and everything seemed good with broadband swap online in their words not a problem. I inadvertently signed up to a new contract which was £10 extra a month. Only to find out you can’t change address online and have the existing contract. You have to speak to an agent to have this. When I rang them they were unsympathetic. I told them why would anyone knowingly take out a new contract that was more expensive. I had made a mistake. They were not willing to reimburse me or go back to my old deal. So I am off to Vodafone when the contract expires even though it is a bit more expensive TALK TALK can do one
I have just spent nearly 2 hours getting this charge removed. I basically had to prove to them that I owned my own you view box – they kept telling me they had sent a talktalk TV box to me. I had to insist on speaking to the complaints dept before so done finally confirmed they hadn’t but only after answering a load of questions about where I’d bought my youviewbox etc.
They credited my account with 0.26p and said I will have the remainder credited to my account next month. I don’t believe it but we’ll see. What really worries me is thatthey with!l demanding return the talktalk TV box at the end of my contract which of course will be impossible cos I never got one! Seriously, I can’t wait to leave them.
I had the £4 removed( I hope) but my box says it is no longer connected to the internet.i can still record programs but it will not let me see bbc I player or catch up tv.have they messed with my box?. I can still see I player on my smart tv though.so what should I be able to get free on the box now
I purchased my own box from cash converters and use it to watch freeview only talk talk tried to charge me the £4 on top of my bb contract until i had it removed they reckon the charge is because they have invested a lot into there tv service.
what this has to do with me is nothing i think the comments from davidj are ignorant.
I asked TalkTalk to take the TV option off when I got the £4 price announcement in January. They agreed this was done but latest bill showed the charge going forward, so have had to contact them yet again to now get a 2 part credit. They hadn’t removed it first time round. Hopefully this time it has been. Poor show.
We recently moved home and the previous owner kindly left us his BT YouView box. Great I thought, a freeview recorder box. Plugged it in and all seemed fine. When I sorted out phone and broadband after the move, I went with TalkTalk as we’d been with them at our old house and they had been sorta ok. After several weeks, I was quite shocked to find that TalkTalk had seemingly ‘hijacked’ my box by overwritten the software / operating system with their own. This stuck me as odd and somewhat of a liberty. I hadn’t given them permission to remotely interfere with my (or anyone else’s) equipment in my home. At this point, I must make it clear that I have never subscribed to any TV services provided by any telecoms provider – and I never will. Suddenly, a £4 charge appears on my fixed price contract bill. Immediately challenged and it has (hopefully) been cancelled (how can you cancel something you didn’t agree to or authorise?) and refunded. My conclusion is that this is yet another stark example of a large company abusing customers as far as contract wording will allow – whichever side of the bed you got out of. I feel sure they’re all the same in varying degrees but this recent stunt from TalkTalk is an absolute outrage!
I didn’t receive an email saying a £4 charge was to be added for talktalk tv – did I miss it? I noticed my bill was high this month thus found this £4 charge added – not a happy bunny. We only record and on the odd occasion watch on iplayer if episodes missed. Have no tv boosts so just bog standard channels. My question is if I cancel the talktalk tv monthly £4 charge CAN I STILL RECORD – Will I get TV guide showing still & is will the iplayer feature vanish.
Hopefully someone can help so I can chat with my husband and make a decision. Thank you.
Report them to Ofcom
I’d never had Talktalk TV or wanted it, I use my own Freeview box, never used a Talktalk router and I’ve been with them since 2003. I spoke to customer services and had the £4 removed, all be it in installments, they tried to tell me that all value packages include Talktalk TV but my last bill was the only one that itemised Talktalk TV.
I’m now trying to terminate my contract without charges, best of luck with that you might say, I’m now waiting for a CEO response.
DavidJ must be a Talktalk employee, he certainly fits the profile.
Hi i joined talk talk in December 2018 just internet and phone 18 months fixed price no tv box as i have my own youview box which does what i need. they sent me the modem kit all set up well. then in February my bill jumps up £4 for tv i dont have a talk talk tv box trying to tell them this as been a nightmare
I am still wondering what I am paying £4 for ,I have been with tiscal as it was back then for 12 years i often spend time on live chat trying to battle a deal ,should i battle this £4.00 it takes forever to explain as they are not English speaking that’s why I won’t phone can’t someone argue the case for us unhappy customers
Like others on here I have just noticed the additional £4.00 on my bill. I have a TalkTalk You View box from a previous contract with TalkTalk which was in my wife’s name. We left TalkTalk and switched to BT for 18 months (during that time the box software updated to BT branding). Talk Talk didn’t ask for the box back. When the BT contract came to an end we switched back to Talk Talk (in my name this time) at which point the box updated with Talk Talk branding.
After explaining the issue a couple of times and getting annoyed about the scripted replies I’ve managed to get them to drop the charge on future bills. We only use the box to watch catch up (BBC iPlayer, ITv Hub, etc) and don’t watch any of the extra services provided by Talk Talk.
I cancelled the £4 TV charge and my download speed dropped from 17 to 10 Megs (line attenuation remains 19dB and S/N 6dB).
I’ve had the £4 taken off but the you view app only shows sky channels now. None of which I have. The normal TV guide has disappeared. Is that because I do t pay the £4?
I DONT HAVE A BOX AND NEVER HAD A BOX OFF TALK TALK THEY CHARGED ME THE £4 GOT IT TOOK OFF DAYS LATER AND REFUND THERE NOT A BAD LOT JUST A BIT THICK SOMETIMES @