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BT Openreach Trial Brings Self Install Superfast Broadband a Step Closer

Tuesday, May 8th, 2012 (12:01 pm) - Score 5,230
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BTOpenreach, which is responsible for managing access to BT’s national UK telecoms and internet access network, has moved the prospect of a self install superfast broadband service (i.e. no engineer required) one set closer today by announcing a technical trial of Microfilters for its 40-80Mbps Fibre-to-the-Cabinet (FTTC) lines.

Most people should already be familiar with Microfilters (aka – Splitters) as they’re used by traditional 8-24Mbps capable (ADSL / ADSL2+) broadband lines, which dominate the market. These are small devices that plug into your BT wall socket and split the line into both a voice (telephone) and data (ADSL) connection, allowing you to make calls and surf the internet at the same time.

Crucially FTTC only takes the fibre optic cable as far as your local street cabinet, while the remaining connection (between cabinets and homes) is done via existing copper cable and VDSL technology. Naturally VDSL and ADSL are very similar and thus it should be possible to adapt Microfilters to FTTC lines, yet there are problems with this approach.

BTOpenreachs Statement

Microfilters are believed to be one of several key enablers to move the GEA-FTTC product to being a self-install product, removing the need for an engineer visit to the end user’s premises.

The use of microfilters, however, may result in reduced speeds when compared to an engineer-based installation, depending on a number of factors. This risk necessitates a technical trial prior to a larger scale customer pilot activity. We’re therefore running this technical trial to understand the actual and perceived service performance achieved using microfilters.

The closed trial, which is set to run for 3 months, is expected to begin in “earlyJune 2012 and BT anticipates that most of the 300+ expected triallists will come from ISP employees. The line connection fee will be free on trial lines.

Internet providers have demanded a wires-only / self-install FTTC solution since the service first emerged, not least because it would help to significantly reduce the setup cost for new customers and could also remove the requirement for a lengthy 12 month contract (needed to help offset the service cost).

The question will be whether or not the performance impact from using a linear Microfilter, instead of a full engineer install, will be worth it. A larger scale customer pilot will follow, but only if BT’s trial is successful.

Leave a Comment
41 Responses
  1. Avatar adslmax

    They can start by giving us free migrations.

  2. Avatar Kyle

    Having had an engineer visit to install a different faceplate did seem rather wasteful. I had already setup the router for him, so he was in and out without any issue whatsoever.

    BT have provided the ‘i-plate’ for filtering the bell wire, which requires unscrewing the faceplate. This was a general public release. I therefore don’t see an issue with them sending out the same information for installing your own new plate.

    I agree that the removal of the engineer will most definitely help the non-mainstream ISPs as they will not have to absorb nor pass on the cost to the customer.

  3. Avatar Tom

    I don’t think this is a good idea. A lot of people have really bad wiring and it is nice that BT come and fix it as part of the installation process.
    People won’t know if they have bad wiring and will always select self install if given a choice. (Especially as I expect the self install will be free / cheaper than the engineer option).

    The same way that BT now supply the VDSL modem, BT should also insist on doing the install so that they know it is installed right in the first place.

    Queue many, many people installing VDSL on their own without filtering Sky boxes etc.

  4. Avatar Deduction

    Its about time.

    All the engineer does is fit a different design iplate to your master socket. (The FTTC faceplate they fit is nothing more than a filter)

    Infact FTTC will work through the original iplate just fine… Ive seen it for myself.

    The only things that would affect speed are dodgy extension wiring that happens with ADSL now anyway.

    Even with the current system of a BT engineer installing that issue doesnt get solved as anyone plugging their gear into extension wiring which is bad once he is gone will suffer issues. Especially during the horrid BT DLM training period.

    The current system of an engineer visit is nothing more than an excuse for BT to make money. The same thing happened when ADSL first appeared in the UK (IE an engineer had to come out). Same with ISDN before that. There was even a time in the early years of dial-up BT insisted you bought their modem. Going even further back in time, there was a time when you had to have a phone from BT and either buy that out completely or pay rent for the equipment.

    Trial need my backside, just send everyone an iplate with their rubbish home hub. It does nothing different to what their “NEW” faceplates do.

  5. Avatar Kyle

    Yes, the engineer left the i-plate on as well as fitting a new faceplate.

    If I had paid £100+ for that, I would not have been very happy. For all those jumping on the bandwagon – he called and said he was switching over at the cabinet and was at the door within 3 minutes!

  6. Avatar Deduction

    They do have to do something at the cabinet first, dunno what exactly though it seems to be very minor (probably basically screwing some wire into some type of terminal block). Either way it still doesnt justify the charge.

    The likes of Virgin media often have to come and dig up half your front lawn, or at the least run a length of cable from pavement to house. 99.9% of the time that amount of actual “work” is more than anything BT do for a FTTC install, yet half the time they have free install offers on.

    The same goes for satellite be it TV or broadband, the actual install (IE climb a rickerty ladder, pray, bolt the thing to the wall and align it) often costs less than than the install fee some are asking for FTTC.

    Its those types of thing that justify some type of charge, not some lump in your living room drinking your tea as he undoes 2 flat head screws from a cheap bit of plastic.

  7. Avatar Telecom Engineer

    Wires only will be a revenue maker for openreach when they charge to put right dodgey wiring. At the moment we have to test the dslam, upgrade and rewire the line at the cab, upgrade the dropwire to modern type if not insitu, sort out internal wiring including fitting dsl extention or moving nte as required, set up eu computer, wii, vision etc…. We also end to end test the line for all defects and then ensure line syncs to atleast predicted and make network changes as required if it doesnt. Sometimes it takes half hour, sometimes all day. Peoples expectations will be greater with fttc so i suspect as the usual issues with adsl rear their head with greater impact fault reports due to eu wiring will sky rocket. People may prefer not to pay installation but I suspect when they get the bill for the rewire they will regret it.

    • Avatar DTMark

      Bill for the rewire? The line at our place has a star configuration which may or may not be responsible for the fact the line can’t do broadband at all (sub 2meg). Investigations into this gave figures of £300+ for the “rewire”.

      Result – changed to 3G, faster broadband, and a total loss of income to BT for five years and counting, not including the wasted money printing all those “Come back…” letters which go in the bin (about two a week now – must be desperate)

      This is going to get hilarious when people are given estimates of 67Mbps and get 8Mbps and asked for even more money so the ISP can deliver the 67Mbps they promised. I see a BBC Watchdog campaign coming on this, in between covering what else Openreach have been up to, and some very angry constituents who might like to hold their local councils to account after their money was spent for them, and they still have slow broadband, certainly not the “superfast” that was touted.

      Thankfully there’s that admittedly weak get-out-clause in the regulator’s scheme so people can walk away from their underperforming line “without penalty”, allegedly, and Virgin Media can mop up the customer if they cover the area.

      Just as well the average performance figures for FTTC were setup with engineer installs, eh?

  8. Avatar Deduction

    Either you are a liar or not a real BT engineer (probably both).

    A FTTC install fee does not include sorting out internal wiring. Or moving the the master socket or setting up a persons computer equipment. Or half the other tripe you mention.

    I know of someone that has just took FTTC with old star wiring and there was an additional £100+ charge for it to be replaced with a modern NTE master socket.

    The FTTC install fee covers nothing more than them flicking the “on” switch (or whatever it is that takes literally less than a few minutes) at the cabinet and replacing the front of the NTE withan FTTC filter faceplate.

    The so called fitting of the “data extension” which is supposed to be included in the install is also really nothing of the sort. If any drilling (IE through a wall, window frame etc to get cables to another room) is needed that is not included in the price either, which is pointless unless you want an extension faceplate in basically the same room as the master socket.

    The only people that will regret BT scrapping FTTC install fees will be shareholders and people with 2 left thumbs that cant plug a filtered faceplate into the master socket.

    Even with dodgy wiring, unless its stupidly bad FTTC should run at its minimum 15Mb the engineer tests for on the install anyway. BT dont guarantee anything higher than that, good or bad wiring.

    • Avatar DTMark

      Our line achieves 42% of its ADSL sync rate.

      42% of the projected sync rate for VDSL for the line length (1180m) is only about 8Mbps. Though VDSL is even more impacted by imperfect wiring/wire.

      If that’s all it runs at, it’s barely quicker than 3G, and if I ordered it and it was that slow, I’d probably be cancelling it since HSPA can hit over 11Mbps here with the right kit, and that’s before the potential 42Mbps and 4G services roll out. Only the upstream would be quicker. Replacing the socketry and D-side might achieve usable speeds, though, but we’d never know.

      I’ve seen reported FTTC speeds from about 2Mbps upwards, and quite a few on less than 15Mbps even though it’s still in its infancy.

  9. Avatar Deduction

    It also seems many now are complaining about massive slow down on their FTTC installs a quick glance on the BT forums of TBB even indicate that.

    So much for so called engineer that check and ensure people get what is estimated eh 😉

    As is normal in this country once again a shoddy rollout of a shoddy over priced product from BT.

    With regards to wiring and thruputs i dread to even think of the cost involved on homes that not only need a NTE fitted but a load of extension wiring which is poor corrected just to get a half decent FTTC speed. Hundreds upon hundreds of pounds id guess. Stuff like that as you also know DTMark is most certainly not covered by the “install” fee for FTTC. Dunno why he even remotely suggested a basic FTTC install covers things like that.

  10. Avatar Telecom Engineer

    Deductroll, you are talking garbage, the basic install includes nte5 and ssfp provision (whilst ensuring nte is first socket) VDSL modem install, pair quality testing and sync with any network changes to predicted speed. Nte5position can be changed, or data extention provided under the home wiring solution, any devices installed under managed install modules. How isps build the jobs or charge at all is up to them. If u learned to listen, rather than spout your constant anti bt bile your contributions may get useful instead of the inaccurate hatefilled tripe.
    As for end users not getting speed promised because of their wiring.. this is why we should keep the engineer install or we will have a repeat of the current adsl where, as above, people are getting bad speeds to the point of not using the service, had he had an engineer install he would at least be certain his home wiring was good and line free of faults.

  11. Avatar DTMark

    Actually I thought one of the key bonuses for BT in this exercise is that some bits of the network finally get tidied up and brought kicking and screaming into this century so as to provide modern services. Going forward apparently not, it seems. But then, it is a telephone company selling telephone lines and they’re fine for voice.

    As far as “test pair quality”, I thought that test was “can it do voice?” and if the answer is yes, it passes. I say that since I’ve seen people get estimates of 30Meg or more, sign up for a year + and then only get 12Meg. Upon investigation it’s thanks to an aliminium D-side or some “blue bean crimps” or some other dreadful legacy of an ancient network.

    Customer is told – line is fine for voice, shut your mouth, you have broadband, and their home is effectively consigned to the broadband slow lane in perpetuity. Not actually because of the knackered old GPO equipment, but because they have no choice and there is no market.

  12. Avatar DTMark

    Rather relevant

    “Eighty Mbps in 2017 – on a network relying on outdated wiring? Don’t bet on it”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2012/may/08/broadband-speeds-uk

    The first comment “We get faster speeds with our phone than we do with our landline” – LOL. No, wasn’t me.

  13. Avatar Telecom Engineer

    THE pair quality test is electrical test of the line and is above the syn standard for phone (ie resistance to earth pass above one meg ohm rather than one kohm) . Tests for wb noise rein, ac balance, dc, ac, earth, hr loop and leg resistance,cap balance etc… then the vdsl test gives speed which we now have to get to at least predicted speed. The pqt is run on all jobs data or pstn and is making the network far healthier than it was 5 years ago. It would be a shame to loose these benefits for the sake of a few quid and an engineers visit. Dont forget that now the dsl is provided by openreach the phone standard doesnt hold water as it is openreach product either it is provided or not .

    • Avatar DTMark

      “then the vdsl test gives speed which we now have to get to at least predicted speed.”

      How is this done? In the example above, the customer was simply told to shove it. Presumably, they’re off to Virgin Media now, since it was available to them and isn’t affected by “blue bean crimps” or some other mystical legacy.

      What is the limit of effort expended to get the performance to match the estimate – for instance, bonding two, three of four D-sides; replacing aliminium or substandard D-sides, removing repair boxes and running a clean circuit, installing new cabinets to shorten the D-sides, and so on?

      I thought the limit of effort was basically “Nil, you get what you’re given – this is a phone network and you have a working phone service. Shut your mouth.”

  14. That guardian article is awful. Fttp or we are stuck on one meg adsl2? I have seen adsl 2 give half a meg next to the exchange due entirely to end user wiring, but people do expect a self install to give same result as engineer install, this is because they are mostly as unaware of the issues as the journos writing this tripe. This is why it needs a technician to provide a good demarcation point and vdsl modem at the least, cant expect the customers to all be clued up techs.

  15. Avatar Deduction

    http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php?topic=93898.msg787663#msg787663
    Does not include master socket only faceplate and extension.

    http://www.plus.net/support/broadband/fibre/fibre_faq.shtml#installWhere
    Does not include any drilling to run extension

    As usual you talk cack!

  16. Avatar Deduction

    http://bt.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/36988
    They dont set up peoples computer equipment either like you claimed.

    https://www.productsandservices.bt.com/consumerOrders/control/termsandconditions?docId=29105&pageTitle=Terms%20and%20Conditions
    Part 8… not just linux either but other devices. They wont even hook up their own BT vision box for you LMFAO

    Keeping spouting nonsense though. For a BT engineer you dont seem to know the guidelines for installing your products, perhaps stop wasting your time here and get back to pole climbing school.

  17. Avatar Deduction

    Also clear from those links they DO NOT test to ensure the line… in his words “test gives speed which we now have to get to at least predicted speed.”

    You have questioned him about DTMark they just test and show there is a “working” internet connection.

    The only requirements for Infinity FTTC is it delivers at least 15Mb on the downstream, and im not even sure if thats true anymore. There are a couple on BTs community forums complaining their speed has dropped below that with nothing being done about it.

    Best not to listen to the rude and lying BT worker drone at all.

  18. Avatar Deduction

    PS…

    No doubt BT and Plusnet are wrong on the matter according to him though.

    PPS…

    Almost forgot to say to the so called engineer that knows nothing about a products terms… Congrats on getting banned on ebuyers forums a couple of days ago also LMAO (over and over)

  19. Avatar DTMark

    The Plusnet forum does say “Movement of the master socket is not designate work by the engineer. These engineers are there to provision the FTTC GEA product, which include replacement of the BT serviced front plate.”

    From what I read, the installation can go very well, or very badly, depending on the quality of the engineer. Generally the faceplate is replaced, or has been thus far.

    What puzzles me is that there are apparently “tests” performed on a line for VDSL, so I don’t understand why people are signing up for the service, getting half the speed they were promised, and no action is taken (renewing or fixing the obsolete kit). What’s the point of the tests?

    We have two master sockets – one upstairs one downstairs. Only the downstairs one could get an ADSL sync, the upstairs one never did (same line, both worked for voice, circuit is split in half on entry to the house by a BT “splitter” box)

    Installing the faceplate would presumably necessitate removal of the old style pre 1981 master upstairs and putting in the necessary socketry which might provide a usable service if the reason ADSL was useless was the socketry and wiring. If it’s a poor D-side or something flaky in the joint repair box on the D-side, then VDSL will be poor too.

    If people sign up for this, and receive poor speeds and decide to cancel without penalty and go for 4G or cable instead, just out of interest – is the ISP refunded by Openreach as compensation for their shoddy equipment and performance, or, does the ISP just swallow the loss themsevles and Openreach does very nicely?

    I had so hoped that VDSL would be a credible cable alternative and it would be possible some day to move more or less anywhere in the country and be guaranteed a broadband connection outside of a cabled area, but when you ask the question “Can you supply a broadband service” the answer will remain “Maybe. But if we can’t, it will be your loss. We are a telephone company after all”.

  20. Deductrol firstly dont use ebuyer, second go on openreach website and look up managed install and home wiring solution for fttc, then you may apologise. The standard used to be get either 5 or 15meg depending on the product, now doing a sync test we need to get the predicted speed as given to eu on order or the product max (ie if 40meg then obv u wont see the 70 the line is capable of) . The lengths we go to are similar to adsl faults i.e. change pair in existing cable, upgrade dropwire etc… we can identify and report an underperforming cable, but it wouldnt be the norm to change it for one eu. If it is impossible to get the predicted speed then the achieved speed is agreed ok by the end user or service provider or old adsl service reinstated. Note this is sync speed and not throughput (perhaps where the 12meg is comming from as wholesale use that as the throughput fault threshhold.. i.e. if u sync at 80 you have met predicted speed openreach have done their bit, but if you only see 12meg throughput wholesale wont accept a fault and so you are stuck) .

    • Avatar DTMark

      The company makes the decisions. The engineers just have to implement them.

      Just to clarify: the line here is 3680m long and ought to sync at somewhere around 5Mbps, but it won’t sync at higher than 2Mbps. (Original estimate was 3Mbps but I was amazed it worked at all so didn’t press it, I expected it to be very poor if it worked at all)

      Actually the average ratio of ADSL sync rates to theoretical sync rates in this area is only about 55% (ADSL sync rates – not throughput – as a percentage of theoretical line capability ranges from 16% to 119% based on 10 samples, ours is 42%)

      It was stable, and the line was mostly fine for voice – very quiet, actually, mobiles were and are better.

      Is that line faulty?

      If it were VDSL enabled and only ran at 8Mbps against a higher estimate, is that line faulty?

      In the event that the performance is well below the estimate then I was led to believe the customer may cancel without penalty regardless of contract length provided the ISP subscribes to the Code of Conduct. So the customer can ditch a poor performing service assuming they have an alternative (BT is basically banking on there not being one).

      Fine you can exit, but this lets the ISP off the hook. They’ve taken money to supply a service, and then not delivered it, and their supplier then displays indifference to having let them down.

      What reparations are available in each case?

  21. A quick google shows pages explaining managed install modules and home wiring (now part of the instal costs to isps according to or site) within the first few results. Ofcourse doing this for a living makes me much less reliable than some 14 year old troll. Mark the vdsl test is run on either a jdsu terminal or exfo tester and is sync stats etc as a router reports for adsl. The final eclipse or gea combined test is triggered by the engineer ringing the remote tester from the line, the exchange then runs a one way copper test and retrieves sync against or modem stats from the dslam. This is done on each install or the engineer gets a failure for test on complete (ie a kick up the arse) .
    As for whatever decutrol showed on those links i wont get tangled up in isp not ordering enough modules, engineer not fitting correctly or god forbid customer services not understanding the product. The specs are on the openreach website and prove what iam saying is the truth.

  22. Avatar Deduction

    Not a single link to back up your babble as usual. Already shown you talk complete nonsense and the other poster also knows it.

    One of those links you dismiss is clearly BT and clearly states “You will be responsible for reconnecting any other online equipment you may have, such as a BT Vision+ box, additional computers, or games consoles.”

    They DO NOT connect equipment up for you as you originally claimed.

    Fitting an NTE master is not included in the FTTC install price either the only thing included is one “extension” (no drilling of holes included in price, that comes under the “additional work” pricing structure) the extension can not be longer than 30M either that and fitting of a filtered faceplate is included, nothing more.

    If sorting out peoples wiring, along with connecting up peoples equipment and fitting a NTE master socket where needed is included in a FTTC install price rather than just constantly talk nonsense why dont you just point to where that is stated and for once in your sad banned everywhere life show you are right.

    The reason you dont is because you are wrong, and its not just me in the comments that have read around a little to see it.

  23. Avatar Telecom Engineer

    Sorting out wiring – we have to fit an nte5 to fit the ssfp, the nte5 must be the first socket in the house (i.e. not starred)- this is standard for engineer installs, note:
    “that from 1 September 2011 the Home Wiring Solution (previously free until 30 June 2011) will be absorbed into the updated GEA-FTTC standard connection price of £80. Our records show that well over half of all installations to date have included a home wiring solution (evidencing the move towards siting wiring nearer the TV”

    http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/updates/briefings/super-fastfibreaccessbriefings/super-fastfibreaccessbriefingsarticles/nga01411.do

    Regarding Openreach not setting up devices – the ISP must select how many (if any) managed install modules they want (bt usually do at least 1 – some like plusnet often none):
    Device list
    Value presented to CPs in KCI 3
    Basic Router and 1 computer
    BMwin/BMmac
    1 Additional computer windows or mac
    AddPCwin/AddPCmac
    Additional computer 2 windows or mac
    AddPCwin/AddPCmac
    Additional computer 3 windows or mac
    AddPCwin/AddPCmac
    BT Vision STB Reconnection
    BTV
    Unsupported Device
    Suppress
    Not Applicable
    Suppress

    http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/updates/briefings/super-fastfibreaccessbriefings/super-fastfibreaccessbriefingsarticles/nga02511.do

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaeF_hTbZ50 – a PQT script in action (latest bt scripts include wb noise).

    “What if the speed predicted for an 80/20 line does not live up to expectations?
    An end user may cease their GEA over FTTC service within 90 days of installation if the line does not achieve at least 50% of the speed predicted at the point of sale. We will provide a refund of the standard connection, rental and cease charges and no early termination charge will apply. This refund will only be provided if we were given the opportunity, either at installation, or through a fault investigation, to correct any line conditions which might have caused the performance issue. This policy applies to all GEA over FTTC lines and more information can be found in section 3.10.1 of the GEA over FTTC product description.” – http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/updates/briefings/super-fastfibreaccessbriefings/super-fastfibreaccessbriefingsarticles/nga00612.do

    Interesting as we have been advised to work to predicted speed – seems a fee free cancellation is only available if you get 50% of predicted speed.

  24. Avatar Telecom Engineer

    Apologies if there appear multiple posts, mods please use the last one.

  25. Avatar Telecom Engineer

    DT mark re 2X masters, if you point this out to the engineer it would be a 2min job to make one the real master and backwire to the 2nd to make an extension (after ssfp of course). The line will be tested for physical faults and the dsl sync rate – whilst we work to the predicted speed the links above suggest cash back only if below 50%. From experience a lot of poor line performance is down to old eside cables (which only ever seem to be patched) – rather than dside which engineers can replace themselves without major issues: to clarify the earlier point about under performing cable – if it fails a PQT test then it is a real fault and the pair will be changed at least or changed fully if need be (pulled in a 20pr Copper to replace some knackered battery covered ali on one job a few weeks ago) – but non electrical performance issues (i.e. pair is clean) wont really lead to a cable change for one end user.
    However – as I said Dsides are in general in much better nick as they are maintained and often replaced when faulty – as vdsl is only using that cable segment the chances for vastly improved service is high.
    For yourself if you could guess the cable length (follow main road) from your house to the cabinet I can give you a good idea what sync you should expect – though the BT checker does do a very good (if conservative) job anyway.

  26. Avatar DTMark

    As is normal (sadly, in my experience – and that’s not knocking engineers, but more likely, management or lack thereof) the BT engineer didn’t bother turning up on the day they were meant to set the line up. We waited in all day. It actually took weeks and endless phone calls chasing it before it did get set up, and then it was set up remotely without access (to the wrong D-side connected to nothing) and then finally again without access was connected to the right D-side which goes through all the old GPO circuitry. No visit, no NTE5 fitted.

    The line is 3680m long which is D 2500m + E 1180m. ADSL1 IP Profile = 1750kbps.

    So even in the best case scenario, this isn’t going to deliver much more than 20Meg here, barely current-gen, and that’s on a D+E combination which only manages 42% of its ADSL performance (that’s how I get the 8Meg forecast though as you say the full speed might be achieved). From a sample of ten lines, only four perform at or above the sync they “ought to” for their length (I can work out all the line lengths quite easily with reasonable accuracy). In the sample line performance is generally poor. Ours is just a bit worse then average.

    Useful to know re E-sides, I’d always assumed the worst bits of the network were the D-sides as they’re overground; ours has a repair box along the 10m length to the pole which also has a fat DACS box on it as do at least several others which is another concern re VDSL since I presume it won’t work when the DACS is on the D-side.

    Basically, when we next move, it will be to a cabled area. We’ll sign up with them on the *30 day money back guarantee*. If it performs well, great. If it doesn’t then we might take the risk on a BT based FTTC solution. And that’s the crux of it, really – what I want to know, when I move, is “Can I get a competent broadband solution” and *still* only cable can say “Yes” with any near certainty.

    I think BT might have got away (despite much customer furore) with only delivering on average about 25% to 25% of the headline speeds for its ADSL2+ service in the real world. But I don’t think that someone signing up for a 40Meg FTTC service who gets 15Meg is going to willingly see out the “contract” and especially if they migrated from a decent cable segment where they really did see 30Meg or 50Meg, they’re surely likely to just tell the ISP to get stuffed. A 2Meg ADSL user would be delighted with 15Meg. A cable user is going to find it derisory.

    It appears that BT then refunds half the money (if GEA) and the poor ISP then just shoulders the rest of the loss through no fault of their own.

    • Avatar New_Londoner

      @Deduction
      Thankfully none of the above links are relevant to DTMark, the only ones that he woudl need to concern himself with are any that are charged by his ISP. Why on earth would he need to know or care what their underlying costs are, or what they are comprised of, its what is on his ISP’s price list that matters.

    • Avatar DTMark

      PMSL @ “Breaking/Drilling through each external wall 330.00”

      You wonder how Virgin Media ever makes a profit when it costs that much to drill a hole in the wall to stick the coax cable through.

  27. Avatar Telecom Engineer

    Dear god deduction, you are really scrapping the barrel, contruction costs i.e.drilling for ductwork to feed a premesis i.e. under a garden wall will be expensive but has nowt to do with the service being discussed. Engineers do not report back how many walls they have drilled through to shift sockets or install cat5. You have been shown to be promoting utter falsehoods and no matter how much you try to missquote unassociated products or how many threads you repeat them in you will always be wrong. If you had a shred of decency you would accept defeat, unfortunetly you prefer to prey on those asking genuine questions trying to convince to avoid upgrading their service or face thousands in bills…either to try to get one over on bt or just for ur giggles.

  28. Avatar Deduction

    quote”Dear god deduction, you are really scrapping the barrel, contruction costs i.e.drilling for ductwork to feed a premesis i.e. under a garden wall will be expensive but has nowt to do with the service being discussed.”

    Neither does that suggest you re-read the link. One price quoted is for…
    Breaking/Drilling through each external wall

    The key word there being each…. Meaning technically ANY AND EACH WALL BT drill through in your home… Thats what they can bill you.

    Ill be honest and say ive never heard them going that far and charging hundreds each time they basically grab a drill to run some extension cable, but its quite clear that is indeed technically what they could charge.

  29. Avatar Deduction

    quote”If you had a shred of decency you would accept defeat”

    No defeat at all Install charges quoted by openreach do not lie. Moving and or installing an NTE is also quoted in those links. What you personally write down if you are indeed an engineer is irrelevant….. The prices are there in black and white. That is what someone can be charged if they so please.

    Personally id just make the bloke lots of cups of tea and if needed bung them £20 to do any “extra” reasonably quick work they aint booked for. Not that im advocating bribing them or that most of them would be happy to do the job and take the tea and cash lol 😉

  30. Avatar Deduction

    Similarly there are prices for internal walls, so pray you dont need a cable running from outside inside and then into another room. You will need to save a month or twos wages to pay them for that LOL. I doubt anyone would be evil enough to bill it or write down in detail the wall count or time spent, but as its in black and white it could indeed happen.

  31. Avatar Deduction

    £5.60 per metre connection of cable isnt a bad gig either.

    Oh and if you want less than 40M of cable then they can also charge a “visit charge” did you notice that one?

    I guess thats why the FTTC extension kit is only 30metres max eh? Just incase they have a slow month then can bill per metre of cable and a visit charge on top LOL

    Dont say it doesnt happen the price list says it can be charged, what you write down is irrelevant. Those are the costs straight from Openreaches own mouth.

  32. Avatar Tom

    In all FTTC the installs I have seen BT have
    -Setup the EU computer, including installing the crappy software from the CD! and making sure it goes online
    -Installing extension wiring at no extra cost if the customer wanted the VDSL modem in a different location to the master socket.

    In all, BT have been redeemed themselves with FTTC so far (other than the initial cabinet activation date slippage).

  33. Avatar Deduction

    Installs of FTTC and any checks to a connection be it FTTC or otherwise ive seen and experienced with BT engineers is them connecting their own laptop.

    In fact part of the process or not if i take FTTC from anyone they will not be let near my computer to install the rubbish on any CD.

    Then again i could point to my media centre PC which ironically is the actual nearest machine to the master socket and watch the confused fool attempt to place windows bloat on an linux with XBMC install.

  34. Avatar Openreach Engineer

    Deduction.. I am an Openreach Engineer. I work on behalf of BT and other providers to install there vast portfolio of products. Installation of these products require us to follow procedure. This procedure means we have to go through certain motions to understand what the end user requires but ultimately to fulfill our CP’s Customer Service Values in frontline of Openreach service delivery.

    If it wasn’t for these procedures and values I would be more than happy to leave all aspects of the installation and provision of network to clever little know it alls like your self as you quite clearly have a finer grasp on the work involved in maintaining and delivering the largest network in the country!

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