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UPD2 Surrey Council UK Hands GBP33m Superfast Broadband Contract to BT

Wednesday, September 12th, 2012 (12:47 pm) - Score 2,253

The Surrey County Council (SCC) today announced that BT has somewhat unsurprisingly won the £33 million contract for making superfast broadband (25Mbps+) ISP services available to “nearly” 100% of local businesses and homes by the end of 2014.

Part of the funding will come from the government’s Broadband Delivery UK (BDUK) office, which last year allocated £1,310,000 to help deploy the new service, with the rest coming from BT (£11.8m) and the local authority (£20m). Today’s announcement suggests that the new development could “boost the county’s economy by around £28m annually“.

The deal itself, which will see BT rolling out a mix of its usual up to 80Mbps capable FTTC and up to 330Mbps FTTP technologies, aims to help the roughly 20% of local businesses and homes (more than 90,000 premises) that cannot currently receive a superfast connection via private investment alone.

Peter Martin, SCC Deputy Leader, said:

The county council has done a deal that will make Surrey the best connected county in the country and could boost our economy by around £28m a year.

This will be a great boost for business, from start-ups in small offices through to multi-nationals. It can be crucial to the continued success of Surrey businesses and a huge attraction to those looking to move in.

Fast and reliable web access is essential to our daily lives and by stepping in we’re also making sure no Surrey communities are disadvantaged.”

Bill Murphy, Managing Director of BT’s Next Generation Broadband, added:

We are delighted to have been chosen as a partner in this project by Surrey County Council. This project puts Surrey well ahead of the game. It goes further than the Government’s national aim for fibre broadband by 2015 and brings the county within a whisker of 100% fibre broadband availability. No other county has announced a scheme matching Surrey’s high-speed broadband coverage.”

A survey conducted by the council last year (3,000 businesses and residents polled) revealed that nearly 87% of locals experienced speeds slower than the national average (at the time of this survey Ofcom was reporting the national average to be 7.6Mbps, which has since risen to 9.1Mbps). According to BT the average downstream speed in Surrey today is 7.4Mbps (Megabits per second).

The UK government nationally aims for 90% of “people in each local authority area” to be within reach of a superfast broadband service by March 2015, while the last 10% can expect a minimum speed of at least 2Mbps. But many of these Local Broadband Plan’s (LBP) are currently being held up by EU competition concerns (here), which may or may not be resolved this month (here).

As part of the project, SCC and BT have also agreed to “work closely on next generation broadband solutions for the few remaining premises that are harder to reach with a fixed fibre line“. Interestingly BT was apparently one of “three firms shortlisted for the contract“, which is despite the fact that the BDUK framework only covers BT and Fujitsu (we’re trying to find out whom the third bidder was and whether or not they exited a long time ago).

UPDATE 2:13pm

BT let us know that the Surrey procurement was underway some time before the BDUK framework was put in place and will thus use an “umbrella scheme” for state aid approval. We also understand that the other two short listed companies were Briskona Ltd and ETDE Ltd. No mention of Fujitsu.

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By Mark Jackson
Mark is a professional technology writer, IT consultant and computer engineer from Dorset (England), he also founded ISPreview in 1999 and enjoys analysing the latest telecoms and broadband developments. Find me on Twitter, , Facebook and Linkedin.
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105 Responses
  1. Chris Conder says:

    Amazing how every county is suffering from the ‘worst’ broadband, and according to Bill as they hand the money over to him they will be the ‘best’.
    It makes you wonder why councils hand the money over to the company whose fault it is their broadband access is so bad? Wonder why they didn’t make it possible for altnets to compete in the tender process and do the job right? I wonder if they realise the whole job will be to do again in a few years. Cabinets and copper can’t deliver a futureproof solution to everyone, and FTTP will be far too expensive for rural areas at openreach charges for excess construction charges. Altnets such as gigaclear are already providing a solution, and many more could do if the council money went to fibre hubs.

    1. DTMark says:

      Quite so. Mark, when do we get to see the full tender specification signed between BT and the council bodies.. e.g. to see what has been bought on our behalf with our money?

    2. Mark Jackson says:

      Most of the tenders are up on the usual public tender sites but they rarely give you much detail, otherwise more info. can be found here:


    3. Somerset says:

      OK Chris, just for once reply to questions on your comments and please explain why it will all have to be done again in a few years. BT cabinets are effectively fibre hubs for FTTP.

    4. DTMark says:

      I’m interested in the specifics of what has been purchased. All these projects are described as “superfast broadband”, but from what I read, they are simply current-gen “fibre to the cabinet” projects not really related to the aims of the BDUK project nor achieving said aims.

  2. FibreFred says:

    Almost 100% will get FTTC which means almost 100& will have access to FTTP from next year should they want it, sounds good to me 🙂

    Better than giving a few quid to an altnet that would only cover a small fraction of the area with FTTP, could an altnet match the £11m funding?

    Its all water under the bridge now anyway I guess we all know BDUK isn’t fit for purpose but at least Surrey has a good future

    1. DTMark says:

      I wouldn’t propose to give any money either to BT or to altnets except for in a very small number of specific outlying areas if, and only if, necessary.

      Our local town, Alton Hampshire, remains a shambles for broadband even after the FTTC rollout with some areas not able to get any broadband at all, just some narrowband ADSL, and no businesses (that I can find) with access to any modern connectivity at all.

      Even the ones who can get access to something modern have a choice of only one provider for the bits that really matter, regardless of who sends them the bill. Lack of competition = lower standards, worse quality and higher prices.

      And what is there is only current generation access – fibre to the cabinet, which has been around in half the country for a long time now.

      When will we see a superfast broadband project in areas like that, finally bringing NGA and meaning that pretty well no matter where you are in your local town, you can gain access to modern broadband services at a reasonable cost with a choice of suppliers, with competition raising standards?

    2. FibreFred says:

      Hmmm not sure about that, surely its next gen for most? I’m current gen (ADSL) and I’m waiting for next gen (FTTC). Its certainly not been around for a long time, the rollout only started 3yrs ago and has yet to conclude, then it will be “current gen” 🙂

    3. DTMark says:

      I lived with my parents in Harlow, Essex (for my sins) until I was about 23 years old. That was way back in 1995. We had a cablemodem then and they still have one, running at 31Mbps on a basic 30Mbps package over the same FTTC network albeit the interlinks between head-end and street cab are all being upgraded now somewhat belatedly.

      So Harlow had a modern network 17 years ago and has had FTTC for as long as I can recall. It is hardly something new and by definition is “current generation”, indeed rather old, since it already exists in fairly widespread fashion.

      Perhaps if there were a market for broadband in your area, you would have had access to a broadband service by now instead of just some basic narrowband in the year 2012… did you mention once you only have a 3Meg narrowband service, a third of what my 3G HSPA modem regularly attains?

      Interestingly, that cable FTTC rollout didn’t involve stacks of taxpayer’s money. Some of their creditors’ money, though, perhaps 😉

    4. Deduction says:

      1. The on demand product is not a true FTTP service
      2. The funding involved in the surrey deal has nothing to do with that product
      3. The funding does not cover the future “on demand” product. The install cost is likely to vary the further you are from a cabinet (IE how much fibre cable is needed and work) and whether or not you have ducting from cabinet to your home or phone pole. The user will have to pay for that not this money.

      All this shows is yet another example of a waste of tax payers cash.

    5. FibreFred says:

      @DTMark .. ok BT’s next gen broadband then 🙂

    6. FibreFred says:

      “1. The on demand product is not a true FTTP service”

      – Well.. actually it is, the rest of your points are fine though no the funding isn’t for on-demand, simply highlighting the FTTC deployment is not a dead end and has a good future as it can be built on to provide a higher speed true FTTP service

    7. Deduction says:

      It isnt a true FTTP product.

      Fibre cable connects to a cabinet from exchange…..
      A SECOND cable then connects FROM that cabinet to the users home.
      It is NOT a continuous cable.

      It is a hybrid system that in THEORY should give speeds FTTP is capable of. (which personally i doubt in large populated areas for a number of reasons, all of which like money being tied to the system in the first place are totally irrelevant to this news story).

    8. FibreFred says:

      Already discussed and proved wrong in the past I won’t go over old ground again, just re-read what I’ve previously posted, you were wrong before and are still wrong.

      PON, go read about it. Whatever you think it doesn’t alter the fact PON is a true FTTP solution and the choice of fibre home broadband worldwide, sorry it doesn’t sit well with you, but its still true.

    9. Deduction says:

      Wrong on that also the FTTP ON DEMAND product is actually GPON based

    10. FibreFred says:

      And what did I say? PON – GPON is just a flavour of PON. So are you saying FTTH deliveries that use GPON are not true FTTH because that is what it sounds like your saying

    11. Deduction says:

      Real FTTP from BT uses GEA NOT GPON. GPON is creaky old tech and nowhere near capable of the same speed as the GEA system.

    12. FibreFred says:

      Oh dear, I’ll save you further embarrassment 🙂

    13. FibreFred says:

      Although I noticed you failed to answer my question, are you saying GPON is not a true FTTP delivery

    14. Deduction says:

      quote”Oh dear, I’ll save you further embarrassment”

      Im just going by what BT say about their actual FTTP product…

      Though you want to call them liars go right ahead.

      PS… Multi one lined posts, i suggest you attempt to calm yourself before you let forehead hit keyboard.

    15. FibreFred says:

      If you could move those goalposts back for a second we can carry on talking about GPON and not GEA (don’t care about that) tell me about this creaky rubbish GPON that isn’t true FTTP if you can

    16. Deduction says:

      The reasons ondemand is not a FTTP product have already been detailed here…

      FTTP is just that a continuous fibre cable to the premise

    17. Somerset says:

      So how far does a continuous cable have to go to be FTTP, as far as the ispreview.co.uk server?

      It’s fibre, it goes to the property, but it’s not ‘fibre to the property’.

    18. Deduction says:

      These people also agree with me.

      So ask them Somerset

    19. FibreFred says:

      Actually no they agree with me and the rest of the world, you really are making a mess of this one arn’t you, also see references to EPON, GPON in their definitions, everyone but you knows GPON is true FTTH Deduction, as usual you are on your own on this one 😉



      “Fiber to the Home” is defined as an access network architecture in which the final connection to the subscriber’s premises is Optical Fiber. (FTTH)
      The fiber optic communications path is terminated on or inside the premises for the purpose of carrying communication services to a single subscriber.
      In order to be classified as FTTH, the access fiber must cross the subscriber’s premises boundary and terminate
      • inside the premises, or
      • on an external wall of the subscriber’s premises, or
      • no more than 2m from an external wall of the subscriber’s premises

      FTTH may deliver just one service, but generally delivers several such as data, voice and video.

      This FTTH definition excludes architectures where the optical fiber terminates in a public or private space before reaching the premises and where the access path continues to the subscriber over a physical medium other than optical fiber (for example copper loops, power cables, wireless and/or coax).

      Access Protocol

      Access Protocols are the methods of communication used by the equipment located at the communication nodes and at the subscriber’s premises (or buildings) to ensure reliable and effective transmission and reception of information over the optical paths. These protocols are defined in detail by the standards organizations that have created them, and are recognized and implemented by manufacturers around the world.
      The Access Protocols in use today for FTTH Networks and the optical portion of FTTB Networks are:
      “EFM” defined as Ethernet in the First Mile in IEEE 802.3ah
      “EP2P” defined as Ethernet over P2P in IEEE 802.3ah
      “EPON” defined as Ethernet PON in IEEE802.3ah (Note that the expression Gigabit EPON is synonymous with EPON.)
      “BPON” defined as Broadband PON in ITU-T Recommendation G.983
      “GPON” defined as Gigabit PON in ITU-T Recommendation G.984
      “OTHER” access protocols such as proprietary or pre-standard access protocols may be noted for the purpose of completeness in research.

    20. Deduction says:

      quote”The fiber optic communications path is terminated on or inside the premises for the purpose of carrying communication services to a SINGLE subscriber.”

      The ondemand product terminates at the cabinet first. It is a multi-node, multi filtered product. Any fibre prodcut that involves a cabinet is multi-node FTTP IS NOT MULTI NODE.

      Neither BTs FTTC or Ondemand products are recognised by the FTTH council.

    21. Deduction says:

      Further more what i actually stated about GPON is that BTs FTTP doesnt use it. It uses GEA. The ondemand product if you want to be technical is actually a FITL product.

    22. Deduction says:

      Oh and for the 3rd post, (as you like to multi post and post multi waffle)

      I STILL WIN as this story STILL. The funding involved in the surrey deal has nothing to do with the ondemand product. The funding does not cover the future “on demand” product.

      Further more AON vs PON…… PON NOT designed a single feed and not designed for single subscriber…

      Further more GPON known by the ITU as G.984 is old tat. Go learn what 10G-PON or ITU G.987 for a start is.

      The funny thing is you can defend BT all you wish you always end up being wrong, like their 80Mb product which you ranted on about for months being easily capable of that speed but it turns out it only runs at 50 odd Mb on average. Mainly because like you its useless.

    23. FibreFred says:

      A single subscriber is a home “the premise”. Oh it doesn’t matter I’ve ridiculed you enough as it is.

      Good win 😉

    24. Deduction says:

      Try looking at the GPON diagram and learning what an OLT is, bwahaha

    25. Somerset says:

      FTTC won’t be recognised by the ‘Society of fibre kit suppliers’ (FTTH ‘Council’) as it’s not fibre to the home…

      BT FOD and FTTP are a single fibre into the property, where they come from does not matter, the connection to distant servers etc. will be shared.

    26. FibreFred says:

      He knows he’s wrong Somerset which is now why he’s trying to make the very clear definitions into something else (and failing)

    27. FibreFred says:

      And again to quote your own source 🙂


      Fibre to the home (FTTH) – Each subscriber is connected by a dedicated fibre to a port on the equipment in the POP, or to the passive optical splitter, using shared feeder fibre to the POP and 100BASE-BX10 or 1000BASE-BX10 transmission for Ethernet connectivity or GPON (EPON) in case of point-to-multipoint connectivity.

      Hope that’s ok for you? 😉

    28. New_Londoner says:

      Quote “The ondemand product terminates at the cabinet first. ”

      Really? My money is on it simply using a fibre splitter by the cabinet, which would not count as a termination but would simply be a passive component in the GPON “network”.

      Anyway splitting hairs over definitions is all well and good, distracts from the point though surely. Anyone with FTTC can move to FTTP if/when they want, do you really think they’ll be bothered if you or the so-called, self-appointed FTTH Council say its not “real” FTTP? No, me neither.

    29. FibreFred says:

      The thing is New Londoner the fibre council says GPON (which is what FTTH on demand is) is FTTH (as does the rest of the world) so… his “point” is pointless – doesn’t exist

    30. Deduction says:

      BTs ondemand product is not recognised by them either cos it aint true FTTP.

      Oh and nope it terminates at the cabinet first…

    31. FibreFred says:

      As I’ve said and you know full well. On demand is just GPON and they do recognise GPON


      Your hole is deep enough now surely? 😮

    32. Somerset says:

      Looks to me that the FOD connection goes via the Aggregation Node in the same way as the cabinet does. It does not go through the cabinet.

      Fibre and home = FTTH/FTTP.

    33. Deduction says:

      Please show where the FTTH council recognise the BT ondemand product, they dont.

      It is also clear from that diagram the cabinet plays a part and it needs to terminate in the cabinet first as that is where the DSLAM is located.

      Carry on though spreading your lies. Just like the ones about FTTC you and you troll IDs made about 80Mb being easily done even though turns out it only runs at 50 odd Mb on average.

      You still havent answered DTMarks query http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2012/09/surrey-council-uk-hands-gbp33m-superfast-broadband-contract-to-bt.html#comment-20325 in all your waffle with me either. Again i still win as all your blub about ONDEMAND has nothing to do with this money.

    34. FibreFred says:

      “Please show where the FTTH council recognise the BT ondemand product, they dont.”

      No show me why they don’t,its your point to prove. You clearly said they don’t

      “These people also agree with me.

      Why do they?

      BT FTTP on demand=GPON
      GPON is recognised by your precious council

      You can’t prove it as its not true, hilarious. You are back to your usual prove my point for me (which you always end up at) prove it yourself. I’ve already told you what on demand (which is just a buzz word) is, GPON just a standard GPON network.

      You continue to fail I’m afraid. Your only constant

    35. FibreFred says:

      Out of interest, which bit are you struggling with?

      Is it that the fibre council do not class GPON as true FTTH/P


      That BT’s on demand FTTP is not GPON?

      Which of the two do you not believe

    36. FibreFred says:

      Oh hang on you don’t still think FTTP on demand uses a DSLAM do you? 🙂 🙂 oh please no 😐

    37. Deduction says:

      All PON networks use a DSLAM and aggregation nodes you numpty

    38. Somerset says:

      So a DSLAM in a cabinet could do the aggregation even though the diagram shows FOD having separate aggregation in the pavement chamber. It’s FTTP because it’s fibre into the property.

    39. Deduction says:


      http://alpha.tmit.bme.hu/meresek/ttmer9/index_eng.html (search for dslam in that document)

      http://www.zhone.com/products/Raptor/ (quote”These services are deployed over the MALC large list of access technologies which include fiber (both PON and Active Ethernet”)

      Oh whats this…. http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/432946732/Hardware_ready_for_FTTP_FTTH_EPON/showimage.html

      Oh it appears to be a DSLAM for a PON FTTP solution.

    40. Deduction says:

      NO the previous ondemand diagram from BT which i posted clearly shows the aggregation node is seperate from the cabinet somerset.

    41. FibreFred says:

      I’m afraid you’ll have to eat your words Deduction

      Here’s how FTTC works:- https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/super-fastfibreaccess/fibretothecabinet/fttc/downloads/GEA_FTTC_3.pdf

      See the DSLAM, hopefully you are still with me, I know its technical

      Here’s how FTTP works:- https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/super-fastfibreaccess/fibretothepremisesondemand/downloads/FTTPonDemandFactSheet.pdf

      Oh. there’s no DSLAM can you believe it, its just a standard GPON network

      Hopefully now you understand doubtful but there it is for you to see its just a standard GPON design I don’t really know why the made all the fuss about it in the first place to be honest, all its doing it picking up unused fibres and using them for GPON

      Anyway… hope that helps 😉

    42. Deduction says:

      QUOTE from your second link “customers served by a GEA-FTTC enabled cabinet”

      The cabinet is what houses the DSLAM you tool, your diagram just doesnt show the cabinet on it. Thats because its a REACTIVE diagram (ie whats added to make the ondemand solution on top of whats used for FTTC). This is the full PROACTIVE (IE complete all equipment used) solution… http://i46.tinypic.com/fk46ft.gif

      ALL FTTC BE IT GPON OR GEA USES A DSLAM ALL FTTH/FTTP THAT USES GPON USES A DSLAM, what else apart from that and nodes do you think does the electrical to optical conversion in a GPON system????????.

      The ONDEMAND solution from BT is GPON based hence the big damn GPON unit in both diagrams. GEA BASED FTTP (BT REAL FIBRE) does not use a GPON, its straight fibre so no optical to electrical conversion is needed.

      My god you really are dumb. You come on here peddling complete and utter cack with multi names…………. Clear off and play with your imaginary 80Mb for all FTTC.

    43. FibreFred says:

      Nope, it shows you the end to end connectivity. No cabinet no DSLAM, sorry 🙂

    44. FibreFred says:

      “what else apart from that and nodes do you think does the electrical to optical conversion in a GPON system????????. ”

      The ONT does, the rest is optical all of the way to the exchange

      You certainly are confused

    45. Deduction says:

      In that case its still terminated before the home and i still win the argument.

    46. FibreFred says:

      Nope sorry, it only proves you’ve had no idea all along how GPON works and still don’t. Good to see you’ve learnt something though.

    47. Deduction says:

      If the cabinet plays no part then genius why is FTTP ONDEMAND to only be available in FTTC areas? Why cant anyone without a cabinet have it?

    48. Somerset says:

      Because the installation of the fibre tubing (and unblocking of ducts for it) to the cabinet location means it is easier to install fibre from that point to a relatively nearby premises.

    49. Deduction says:

      In that case the fibre terminates first at the cabinet.

    50. FibreFred says:

      +10 to Somerset

      A bunch of fibres are already delivered to that area, many unused (you don’t just run a single pair you use a multi core or couple of multi cores, 24pairs or 36 etc) so you just pick up the unused pairs and create your GPON network.

      The FTTC deployment has done the leg work to the exchange so you can just pick up on what spare fibres are available from the aggregation node. Which is why I said I don’t see why they made a fuss in the first place. Some guy in BT just had a moment and thought hang on why don’t we use the unused fibres for something else and then they turned it into some big thing, when.. its just a GPON network using unused fibres from a previous FTTC deployment, no PCP, no DSLAM needed.

      Technically anyone could have this, but BT won’t offer it to everyone because it will cost them more, it costs them much less if the fibres are already in the area.

      The FTTC requirement is just a commercial/cost one, not a technical one as its a totally physically separate network

    51. Deduction says:

      What utter dribble, i spose they just tie the spare cable onto a new bit and away it goes at 330Mbs….. You just sound stupid now.

    52. FibreFred says:

      As I say.. you’ve still no idea how GPON works. I don’t expect you to believe anything that goes against your argument (and loose face) but then I doubt you’ve ever admitting to be wrong in your whole life.

    53. Deduction says:

      quote”The FTTC deployment has done the leg work to the exchange so you can just pick up on what spare fibres are available from the aggregation node.”

      There is no aggregation node in FTTC look at your link you gave earlier…

      it terminates at the DSLAM in the cabinet. Aggregation nodes are added AFTER the cabinet in a ONDEMAND system (Fibre is taken from where it originally terminates THAT BEING THE CABINET to a aggregation node), that then feeds splitters to homes. Overlay the ONDEMAND diagram you linked to with the FTTC on and its clear how it works. ALL FIBRE in a BT FTTC system terminates at a DSLAM in a cabinet.
      ONDEMAND is an extension to the FTTC system and nothing more than a flash name for a FITL system. The fibre council does not EITHER of them.

    54. FibreFred says:

      You’ll never get it… or should I say you’ll never admit you get it. Never mind

    55. Deduction says:

      Theres nothing to get your own link shows FTTC terminates at the cabinet. Perhaps you should run along and stick to accusing people of trolling and talking cack that FTTC runs at its full or near full 80Mb for all, even though its 50odd.

    56. Tom says:

      I can’t believe that this is still going…
      Anyway: “Blown Fibre is used continuously between Aggregation Node and
      customer premises.”
      This handy article has lots of pretty diagrams to be screenshotted and argued over. Go nuts. I don’t see any FTTC cabinet at the aggregation node 😛


    57. Deduction says:


      QUOTE”Figure 5: FTTC – Access Infrastructure”

      Or as you are dumb ive highlighted it nicely for you.


    58. Deduction says:

      An aggregation node is just that (a collection point) it doesnt terminate in any manner. If the Ondemand product was as simple as running fibre from a persons home to an aggregation node then anyone (even those without a cabinet) could have it, This is NOT the case though. The on demand system is nothing more than a FITL product. Making use of what is already there, INCLUDING the cabinet.

    59. FibreFred says:

      Hahahah oh dear

      Why have you linked to a FTTC picture we all know it uses a cab, we are talking about FTTP

      But… since you have, oh look there is an aggregation node on the FTTC picture which you said didn’t exist with FTTC? 🙂

      As I’ve already explained, the reason people can or can’t have this is the presence (or not) of spare fibres at the aggregation node. And (not sure if you picked this ups or not) GEA is GPON based also.

      FTTP and FTTP on demand does not use a cabinet as I’ve already shown you previously and that document proves it again as well as the Openreach one, no point showing us a FTTC picture and saying “see it uses a cabinet” its a different product we all know FTTC uses a cabinet. What are you proving there? Nothing

    60. Tom says:

      I don’t understand what your picture is trying to prove? Yes, FTT_C_ terminates at the cabinet? Well done.. The FTT_P_ diagram in the same document helpfully shows that this a DSLAM isn’t used and the fibre doesn’t terminate at a cabinet.

    61. Deduction says:

      No we are talking about ONDEMAND, which is not the same as BTs actual FTTP product. Its just you cant remember what was previously discussed. I actually said aggregation nodes were after the cabinet when i should had said before. I pointed out the link you gave earlier shows no aggregation node. I realise referencing to multiple links must be hard for a single brain celled organism to deal with though. ONDEMAND uses the cabinet if it didnt it would be available in areas where FTTC is not available. Its that simple…….

      Please continue to rant like a loon though you normally do. Ill be happy to reference back when ONDEMAND is released to make you look even more stupid. Just like your delusions that most people get 80Mb from FTTC when it turned out the average speed is 50 odd Mb.

      Its amazing BT employ people like you, i guess they wanted a fall back incase the Indian call centres were not dim enough.

    62. Deduction says:

      @TOM, then why is the ONDEMAND solution from BT only to be available in FTTC areas?

    63. FibreFred says:

      I’m glad you now know what the aggregation node is anyway, that is progress and as you can see on your own version of the diagram


      You can see its there at the time FTTC is deployed. But you seem to be tying yourself in knots here.

      To quote yourself:-

      ” Deduction
      September 15, 2012 at 7:14 pm

      NO the previous ondemand diagram from BT which i posted clearly shows the aggregation node is seperate from the cabinet somerset.”

      ^ This correct, stay with this train of thought and you understand, because as you can see on this https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/super-fastfibreaccess/fibretothepremisesondemand/downloads/FTTPonDemandFactSheet.pdf the aggregation node links to the splitter node, then fibre dp into the home.

      Simple, no cabinet, no DSLAM, optical from the exchange all the way into the home and then the ONT converts the optical signal to electrical. No PCP in the path no DSLAM

      But then you change your mind:-

      “Aggregation nodes are added AFTER the cabinet in a ONDEMAND system ”

      For FTTP on demand you seem to think the fibre terminates on the DSLAM in the PCP and is converted from optical to electrical and then sent over fibre to the premises, not only is that wrong it defies the laws of physics but don’t let that stop your argument 🙂

      Anyway, as I’ve said you don’t understand the design at all but in your mish-mash of replies you have got it (just not all at once)

      Aggregation node – a pair of fibres (or multiple pairs) goes from this to the cabinet for FTTC
      Aggregation node – a different pair of fibres (or multiple pairs) goes from this to splitter node for FTTP/FTTP on demand

      Simple, no rocket science. 😉

  3. dragoneast says:

    Can anyone give me an example of a local town (presumably as distinct from a metropolis), anywhere in the world, where “no matter where you are in [the local] town, you can gain access to modern broadband services [in the terms which the poster means, presumably not “narrowband ADSL”) at a reasonable cost with a choice of suppliers, with competition raising standards?”. We could then, presumably, examine that example in detail and see if it has lessons for the UK, rather than get hung up on allegations of this and that as we seem to do, endlessly.

    Do areas which have both BT FTTx and Virgin cable even meet this criteria?

    Is it commercially viable?

  4. bob says:

    FibreFred I know you see the world throigh your rose tinted BT glasses but a HS network based onn a copper local loop was legacy before the rollout even began. It is a cheap short solution which is why BT like it but it leaves the UK well befind the rest of the world where they are investing in a fibre solution

    1. FibreFred says:

      No-one else is using VDSL then? I don’t believe “the rest of the world” are investing in fibre. Some parts of some countries are sure, but that soundbite has nothing behind it

    2. Deduction says:

      Considering the government first said we would be best in Europe and have now back peddled and are stating its only certain countries in Europe, id say bob has a very valid point.

  5. FibreFred says:

    “then why is the ONDEMAND solution from BT only to be available in FTTC areas?”

    Already told you:-


  6. Deduction01 says:

    and that like answers nothing, if no cabinet were needed the ondemand solution would be available for all.

    1. FibreFred says:

      I’ve made it so simple to understand a child could understand it, which.. speaks volumes

    2. FibreFred says:

      No FTTC in your area means no spare fibres in your area = No FTTP on demand

      Good so far? 😉

      FTTC in your area means spare fibres in your area = FTTP on demand is available

      Its so easy, you totally understand and you also understand no PCP or DSLAM is in the FTTP on demand design but you will never admit it, not even if you were walked to the ducts to see with your own eyes. 😀

      As usual with yourself its all about saving face, not sure why you bother tbh

  7. MichaelStone says:

    No FTTC in your area does not mean there is not any fibre spares. That statement is incorrect. If to provide the Ondemand solution fibre it were ran back just to an aggregation node, anyone not just our FTTC areas and customers would indeed be able to subscribe to the product. The aggregation node comes before the cabinet in the chain. We lay enough fibre to that aggregation node in the first place to cover further development of FTTC and other services in the first place.

    Further more the aggregation node is basically of total irrelevance as to who can have Ondemand as fibre from someone’s home in either the Ondemand system or our other FTTP products we sell is (working backwards from the persons home) first fed to a splitter. An aggregation node is not a splitter.

    The cabinet is basically a hand off point for fibre in FTTC systems and will also be to a degree in the Ondemand solution. Even if we could negate the need the cabinet would still have to be used in our Ondemand solution. One reason is due to the battery backup situated in FTTC.

    The cabinets are an essential and used piece of equipment in us being able to offer FTTP Ondemand to business and consumers in the future. The fibre will be terminated at the cabinet not only for emergency power requirements but also tie into the DSLAM to supply to our consumers. Without cabinets and using the technology they already contain and the fibre that is ran to them we would not be able to bring customers exciting developments like Ondemand.

    I hope this clarifies things for all parties that are interested in our Ondemand solution.

    Kind regards

    Michael Stone
    BT Openreach Customer Issues Team.

    1. FibreFred says:

      🙂 very funny… “Emergency power requirements” GPON equipment is unpowered

    2. Tom says:

      And herewith lies the problem with anonymous commenting 🙁
      This gets pedantic but isn’t the rule that ISP reps are supposed to contact Mark before posting?
      Also, I don’t seem to be able to find any reference to any other comments anywhere else on the internet from the “BT Openreach Customer Issues Team” department.

      I would love to believe that this comment is genuine but the department name, Deductions crazy obsession with being “right” at almost any cost, and content of the reply doesn’t fit.

    3. FibreFred says:

      Its bogus Tom 100 percentile. Funny in some ways but very sad in others 🙁

    1. Tom says:

      A team who’s first ever internet post happens to be here.. still very far fetched.

    2. Gadget says:

      Maybe a real department but a) the signature at the end is incorrect and b) is there a Michael Stone working there?

    3. Deduction07 says:

      You are welcome in me pointing out its a real department which you doubted.

    4. Gadget says:

      What is in question is if it is a real post…….

    5. FibreFred says:

      I don’t think there’s any question at all Gadget 😉

    6. Deduction07 says:

      It was a post for Tom who doubted the department was real. As for you ive told you before…
      1) I dont need to make you look stupid you do it all by yourself
      2) I dont need multiple names like you to do it either. Or need to use your own names.
      3) The only funny thing now is your rage at being incorrect.
      4) Go ahead and complain again to staff. Get what you think is a fake post removed as it makes you look an stupid.

      HOWEVER, before whoever does moderating here removes it I suggest MarkJ contacts Openreach. I doubt they will be happy after a specific department spent time to correct your nonsense bile. THEY ARE NOW AWARE OF YOUR FALSE TROLL DESCRIBING OF THEIR PRODUCTS IN MULTIPLE NEWS ITEMS ON THIS WEBSITE.

      It was very interesting, Openreach dont like it when people falsely describe their products on a website. If im to be moderated while your pathetic bile remains i may as well let the company whos products you are falsely describing know about you and the website you do it on.

      What they decide to do will be far more entertaining. Get rid of the source and the nuisance on it all in one shot.

      Have a nice day, i will await your hate rage response AGAIN.

    7. Tom says:

      You are reading the tone of my reply wrong, no rage present – just level headed common sense.
      Once again we are back to your multi-id incorrect accusations when the topic in hand gets too risky. Boring repetition.

    8. Deduction says:

      That most recent post from myself was obviously a reply to Fibrefred, please read the first 2 lines of it.

      As to you doubting the department is real……

      quote”I would love to believe that this comment is genuine but the department name,…”

      Once again you are welcome in me pointing out its a real department which you doubted.

    9. Tom says:

      Oh I see, I missed the “as for you” wording in your previous comment.
      And I was googling for the wrong term. [“Openreach Customer Issues Team”] doesn’t exist. But a search for [Openreach “Customer Issues Team”] would have got me there.

      I’m still skeptical at the authenticity of the comment (see my previous posts) 😛

    10. FibreFred says:

      As you should be Tom, its just more playground antics I’m afraid.

    11. TheFacts says:

      Interesting that Deduction uses ‘ondemand’ as the product name and the ‘Openreach person’ does also whereas all other BT references to the product are ‘FTTP ON Demand’.

    12. Deduction says:


      A search of exactly how they had signed their post, Second link down is how i found it was a real department.

    13. Tom says:

      I assume you know that putting quotes around something means that search engines search for the phrase as quoted rather than random words at any location on a single page. I was after other posts by the department on other forums or sites – of which there are none.

  8. Deduction07 says:

    Battery backup in GPON

    Oh the real FACTS too much aint they.

    1. Somerset says:

      Which product are you looking at? Clearly battery back up may be needed for the unit terminating the fibre in the home, but where in the street network?

    2. Tom says:

      You link to a page full of ONT results, which is the Network Termination kit to be used at the Customer Premises (or as in some of the results) GPON ONT located at, and providing Telephony and internet to a block of flats.

      Do you read the stuff you post?

    3. FibreFred says:

      You forgot to post your comment as MichaelStone doh!! So many id’s some much confusion

  9. Deduction07 says:

    Awww look whos hurt they were wrong.

    1. Deduction07 says:

      MarkJ from my point of view is welcome to contact Openreach.

    2. Deduction07 says:

      I’ve just read this


      I realise that I’m guilty of many of the points made, think the cartoon is in fact me! Sorry everyone, I’m leaving this thread forthwith!


    3. Deduction says:

      ^^^ Not posted by the real Deduction obviously but another hurt BT fan.

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