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BT Set to Avoid Openreach Split as Ofcom Opts for the Middle Ground

Sunday, February 21st, 2016 (8:26 am) - Score 2,278

The UK telecoms regulatory will publish the outcome of their ‘Strategic Review of Digital Communications‘ on Thursday and unsurprisingly there have been some leaks, which appear to confirm our expectation that Ofcom will NOT move to split BT from control of its national phone and broadband network (Openreach).

Instead Ofcom is expected to impose greater separation of Openreach from BT, which could involve giving rival ISPs more access to Openreach’s national network of cables and telephone exchanges (a highly likely outcome). Potentially Ofcom may also require BT’s network access division to have its own separate board, which the operator won’t be very happy about.

However it’s understood that the regulator will opt to keep the option of full separation on the table, which could be used as a bargaining chip should BT move to aggressively oppose their new measures. A BT source told The Telegraph that this may yet result in separation: “It could get to the point of separation by the back door” (i.e. if the price of Ofcom’s new regulation feels too high to stomach).

Naturally all of this is to be accompanied by a variety of other changes to market regulation, which will go well beyond the question of Openreach’s separation. We’ll find out more on Thursday.

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70 Responses
  1. Avatar Bozana says:

    In my opinion, it’s great for the UK infrastructure if Openreach remain part of BT group. They wouldn’t get the same level of investment in the network, or new technologies if they were to become an independant company.

    1. Avatar RLP says:

      BT PLC makes it a little difficult to see correctly, but Openreach is a huge cash-cow for them.

      Openreach takes money from all the different providers for providing access to both the local infrastructure and the national networks.

      Personally I believe those profits are being used to supplement the free TV Service that BT Retail is currently providing in the for of BT Sport.

      If Openreach is separated from BT PLC there will be no loss of investment. Instead we should start to see an improved service as all those profits can correctly be ploughed back into the business that needs them.

      Just my opinion.

    2. Avatar Noel says:

      RLP, you’re correct. Everyone knows it. Only BT & its shareholders obfuscate.

    3. Avatar fastman says:

      bonaza / noel mor misinformation !!!

    4. Avatar Noel says:

      Get back to fixing my phoneline ‘fastman’!

      Your name must be an ironic representation of BT-Openreach’s response to faults

  2. Avatar dragoneast says:

    I’m reminded (again) of the sentiment of that early twentieth century general “When you start interfering in someone else’s affairs it’s like buggery, you can’t stop”. It might indicate that Ofcom have actually asked the question what separation or the alternatives would actually achieve, but still leaves open the question: what result are they trying to achieve? That would be telling.

    1. Avatar FibreFred says:

      When will someone review ofcom?

    2. Avatar Gadget says:

      Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

    3. Avatar dragoneast says:

      I suspect that Ofcom hope to push BT into divesting the OR division voluntarily. Neat and clever, as one expects from a Civil Servant, and takes the heat off Ofcom, compared to the mess of a disputed reference. It keeps their political masters and the anti-BT lobby off their back.

      We can blame BT for the result (again). But so what? What will it actually achieve for the suffering end-users?

    4. Avatar Ignition says:

      So pretty much what we expected – the worst possible outcome.

      Ofcom take their meddling to another level, causing further overheads and tackling none of the issues.

      Most importantly, of course, Ofcom cover their own backsides with the politicians.

      I very much hope, actually, that BT oppose this aggressively and pursue a comprehensive programme of PR, lobbying and everything else against Ofcom.

      I sincerely hope they are joined by Virgin Media and everyone else who has invested in their own networks rather than waiting for access to more and more of BT’s.

      Enough is enough. We’re supposed to have a Conservative government in power. How about some deregulation and letting the market do its thing? Couldn’t produce a result any worse than the one we have.

    5. Avatar Steve Jones says:

      It looks rather like Ofcom are going to try and get full structural separation by stages. Ofcom have no direct powers to do this (short of a reference to competition authorities), but it looks rather like they are going to try and get BT to spend a huge amount of money creating a what amounts to two companies. Despite what many people think, there’s a huge difference between functional and structural separation. That’s especially so given these have been tightly integrated in the past which will cover everything from shared overheads, pension systems, intellectual property rights, assets, debts and so on.

      I can’t see the BT board rolling over and spending massive amounts of shareholders funds on this sort of stuff, not to mention losing effective control of overall strategy without a fight. It may just end up with some sort of fudge, but it could get very messy. I see a lot of uncertainty in the next few months.

      In any event, I look forwards to seeing the actual proposals. Hopefully they will have a reasonable amount of detail.

    6. Avatar dragoneast says:

      I think Ofcom are in a very uncomfortable position. Deservedly; they ask for it. BT are not just a national champion, a major employer and their R&D is internationally renowned; but their whole infrastructure is a critical national asset. The Treasury won’t be thankful if any of that is put in jeopardy, and BT are only too conscious of it. But there are loud-mouthed vested interests the other way too: local MPs, the Murdoch outfits, and TT and the rest of the media to name a few. I wouldn’t want to be the referee, either. Sadly the rest of us are, as usual in anything to do with government, pawns in this game. Since Ofcom seem to be making up the rules as they go along, I am inclined join the rest who are chanting “Ref, Just get off the pitch”.

    7. Avatar FibreFred says:

      ^ Indeed, its Ofcom that need reviewing.

  3. Avatar Gadget says:

    it will be interesting to see what changes might end up being proposed over and above the current structure which already has an “AS Management Board” and separate accounting to be found in Section 5 of the Undertakings http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/telecoms/policy/bt/consolidated.pdf

    1. Avatar Vince says:

      The accounting is not that separate, as recent events have shown…

      And the big issue is that if it is supposed to be arms length, it needs to lose all reference and inference to BT. It’s actually still the reason most people think they can only go to BT for services “I need a BT Line” etc.

  4. Avatar Reg Morris says:

    I AM FOR THE BREAKUP OF OFCOM AND OPEN REACH I find it incredible are we are going down a road of censorship when will BT group recoganice the ordinary citizen small business and small providers who have the technology to keep us safe but as i have said in previous entries Ofcom the regulator can’t be involved in any more vital decision making because they are 15 years out of touch with reality.The old boy network have hijacked the BT group from top to bottom and only members of that organisation can receive the very best offered. The rest of us they are not bothered police wont even prosecute wrongdoers in open reach who broke the law of the in preventing calls coming through to your designated numbers and lousy broadband speeds offered a two way service instead of average speed eg. a business receives 18Mb a member of old boy network and not being a member you would receive 2Mb but in matter if fact we should all receive 10Mb average and thats why I for one what the break up. Can anybody in Ofcom or open reach or BT group come back to me to ascertain why my lines are still been censored here in Neston in Cheshire.Every body seems to be above the law of the land. No one should have to wait 5 years for a incoming lead on a business line and have to wait 7 months for a internet connection in 2016.
    These are the issues were the police and powers that be have all closed their eyes only looking at the profits before the safety of the nation and a honest playing field for all but no they don’t want competition. The USA just laugh at us at least they have trust laws to protect small business.I want the breakup of Ofcom itself also because it is out of date to the new services offered and why should open reach control every bodies invention or new device which is the basis of my argument. BT should have never been allowed this state monopoly yes they put the finance up for the copper cables but here it is super fibre now and MP’s must should have let other providers access as in USA. This old antiquated set up really is not in the best interests of the country at large but to the chosen few who continue to stifle real competition but charge premium rates for services for the masses the old boy net work members have no problems they don’t have to listen to the crazy music for 20 minutes before you go through to a operator. Please Mr Gavin Patterson CEO BT group wake up to the real world not the dark ages as you seem to be in a time warp at least the bankers were caught by USA intelligence did BT assist I doubt it with the present set up. I rest my case for a 2016 new regulator of telecommunications industry and the breakup of open reach which is far overdue technology has moved on so fast the regulator has been asleep and that’s why nothing can’t be done.I for one can’t be fooled about delaying this key issue open reach policy no one knows the real cost to the country its censored.

    1. Avatar FibreFred says:


      Just a tip if you want people to read your posts please avoid “walls of text” otherwise it makes for harder reading.

      I only read bits but some of your complaints are misguided e.g. openreach blocking / censoring calls. Openreach just provide wires they don’t get involved in call routing etc

    2. Avatar Bozana says:

      What have you been smoking this morning?

    3. Avatar Steve Jones says:

      That’s a very impressive stream of consciousness without, as far as I can see, a single coherent argument.

    4. Avatar Ignition says:

      ‘MP’s must should have let other providers access as in USA.’

      This bit caught my attention in the wall of text as it’s utter nonsense. The USA is well known as having a duopoly in many areas between the telco, who unlike Openreach don’t have an obligation to permit other providers access to their network, and the cable company.

      ‘Until my both business lines are 100% I will continue letting you know the real issues which have destroyed my faith in BT group, Open Reach and Ofcom
      Would you like to sit in silence daily weekly and yearly I call that censorship.

      Thanks for the actual motivation.

      You’ve every write to write anything you wish in here, within the boundaries of the law. I am not sure how it’ll help your case and indeed doubt it will but it’s certainly your right.

      Other posters here, likewise, have every right to point out when what you’re writing isn’t the case.

      Your statements are baseless, your ideas of ‘hard evidence’ seem to equal ‘because I say so’ which doesn’t work, your solutions you put forward to the issues are going to be ineffective.

      There’s no way of taking you seriously. You have obviously had some frustrations and found an outlet.

      I’ve had some issues with Openreach in the past, too. Much of the frustrations was dealt with in private, with some exposure to public where beneficial, and in the end thanks to a combination of negotiation, genuine hard facts, as in evidence not my opinion, and PR thanks to Channel 4, ISP Review, local press, local and national government, the best possible result was achieved.

      In my experience, with the hard evidence I have, this approach is far more effective than ranting on comments sections on ISPReview, cathartic as that may be in the very short term.

    5. Avatar dragoneast says:

      I’m not going to comment on the circumstances, which I don’t know or even start to understand from the posts. But I will just observe that if the End-User is so confused and frustrated by the set-up that they feel their only course is to shout and scream in frustration, then Ofcom, as the regulator, cannot disclaim all responsibility for that state of affairs.

  5. Avatar Reg Morris says:

    To Fibre Fred And Bozana You cant dispute my hard evidence in small towns it has gone on for years behind closed doors nobody will know yet to what i have experienced the evidence of serious wrong doing yet everybody wants to discredit what I have found out.Everybody closes rank why can’t BT group admit there is a real problem instead of applying the deadlock procedure and denying paying compensation.Why are open reach engineers in charge of claim forms in which over the years not one has been filled why? In which they carry on giving you the treatment but they know they are safe because you can’t report the new fault or complaint.Until my both business lines are 100% I will continue letting you know the real issues which have destroyed my faith in BT group, Open Reach and Ofcom
    Would you like to sit in silence daily weekly and yearly I call that censorship.

    1. Avatar fastman says:


      in have no idea what you are on about — but I think its something to do with your line in Neston in Cheshire. No one should have to wait 5 years for a incoming lead on a business line and have to wait 7 months for a internet connection in 2016. — so cant comment on that unless you are trying to lead across a railway line / motorway or someones land where you cant get permission – the you could wait for ever !!!

    2. Avatar Oggy says:

      Reg, have you forgotten to take your medication this morning or are you a comedian?

      Your rants have certainly given me a chuckle.

  6. Avatar Reg Morris says:

    To Ignition yes i could go down the softly softly approach but as i am the only loser in this case which i have been given very little opportunity to say of what did really happen over the years.Someone thought i wouldn’t know the change in behavior of my phone lines to what it is now.Before all the troubles i was receiving calls from all over the world. Yes i have suffered horrendous losses why because of faulty phones yet every check seems to say nothing wrong with phones but in reality I don’t exist.I want to ask BT group why did you not send a deadlock letter and also Talk Talk 2.5 years ago when i wanted to go to Ombudsmans service
    yet you never sent the desdlock letters so i couldn’t proceed. Just recently i went to my new MP and he suggested i go back to ombudsman service and made it really easy to contact them but because i had approached them 2,5 years ago an inquiry was denied but remember Talk Talk and BT group joined forces in not sending a copy of the deadlock letter as requested to my e-mail address so i could not proceed with my claim for compensation. Do you think it is right because i am in a deadlock position that i cant even contact BT group /Open Reach to dicsuss the issues once the powers at be have made up their mind in my case I am in a no win situation because of lapse security In BT group which doesn’t protect the consumer I have suffered. BT group Talk Talk and Open reach are not above the law of the land. Let me remind you of Article 8 of the European Human Rights Act
    Respect For Correspondence
    Everyone has the right to uninterrupted and uncensored communication from others -a right in particular in relevance in relation to phone tapping e-mail surveillance and the reading of letters.

    These rights have been violated with the present set up and maybe i can lie low and go to sleep and let another innocent victim take the strain. What i do no censorship is here. It is very hard to state your case when everybody wont let you know the facts. Do you think what i have suffered is poor service because that’s what the latest police inquiry stated i say it is criminal and that’s were i differ as I am a victim of a massive fraud which has cost myself £1000’s in lost business over the years. I don’t like this runaround which victims can’t be heard because of insider dealing in which victims have no rights because of deadlock procedure. Reform is badly needed yes i am for state security but to use the technology to place you out of business no.All I want is BT group to look at the case they have insurance to cover this eventuality and maybe we can all draw a line under this unsavoury episode. What i have exposed is a weakness in the present system of Providers and the regulatory body Ofcom who are so far from reality.Thanks for the opportunity of expressing the real problems in the industry which has not been addressed properly to today’s technology

  7. Avatar TheFacts says:

    ‘The rest of us they are not bothered police wont even prosecute wrongdoers in open reach who broke the law of the in preventing calls coming through to your designated numbers and lousy broadband speeds offered a two way service instead of average speed eg. a business receives 18Mb a member of old boy network and not being a member you would receive 2Mb but in matter if fact we should all receive 10Mb average and thats why I for one what the break up’

    What’s this all about?

  8. Avatar Reg Morris says:

    PS I have chose not to use any nom de plume or any other name not mine as i want the truth to come out and a full investigation required, not by people replying trying to discredit the evidence i have obtained over the years of misery and suffering at the hands of the chosen few who are above the law. How many cases have come to trial in the last 5 years for cyber or telephonic crime. Just ask CPS London for the answer i say you will be very surprised the stats don’t lie

    1. Avatar New_Londoner says:


      Whether or not you have any cause for complaint and whether you have any evidence to support your complaint are both impossible to judge given your unintelligible posts. I suggest you try again, but try to structure your posts into proper sentences with punctuation, if you wish others to understand the nature of the issues affecting you.

    2. Avatar TheFacts says:

      Please list the issues you have, one line at a time.

  9. Avatar dragoneast says:

    @ Reg Morris

    Am I right to assume from the reference to TalkTalk that they are your service provider? Is that for both the lines you refer to, and for both voice calls and broadband? And is it TalkTalk LLU (up to 18 Meg)? In any event as an End User you have no contract with BT’s OpenReach Division. If they need to get involved at all, it is as a contractor to and at the request of your service provider, whoever that is. They have to deal with OpenReach, if necessary, but whatever the reason get it sorted out, not you.

    TalkTalk’s (at least, residential) customer service has in the past been criticised, and some customers feel they have been misled and misinformed. My neighbour is within them too and has had problems with her telephone service.

    It’s the same as if the contractor fesses up the pavement outside your house. Your gripe is not with the workman, but with the Council on whose behalf he is working, even though their staff are sitting in an office miles away.

    If we have the sort of information which I ask for, someone might be able to start helping you, if that is what you want.

    1. Avatar Steve Jones says:

      In that I can make any sense at all of those postings, then I too agree the most likely scenario being described is that TalkTalk are the service provider and, assuming this is all full LLU, they will be providing the voice service.

      If this is true, TalkTalk is the SP and any dispute resolution (Ombudsman, deadlock letters etc.) will be with them. Openreach might well have been involved in diagnostic tests, but as all they be provide is an MPF (raw line), then they won’t have anything to do with the voice or broadband connection, just the line. As at least one thread of this complaint seems to be an allegation that incoming business calls are being blocked, then that would be nothing to do with OR. There also seems to be some complaint about excessive delays in provisioning (I think) which would be more OR related, and a some general stuff about broadband provision (like lack of symmetrical service). That, again, will relate to OR and is at least a bit more relevant to the article.

      This could all be wrong of course, but as the complaints in these postings are not exactly set out in a series of clear statements of the problem encountered and details of interactions with the parties involved, it’s virtually impossible to be clear.

  10. Avatar Reg Morris says:

    To All who want to help posts were submitted last week about the level of service given by Open reach and BT group. I could never prove these allegations on a single line. I had already two business lines with BT business On one line all i received was the same clients and friends and family on one line.This line I had enough with BT so i moved the line for a Talk Talk package plus internet in October 2012. The talk talk engineer came on 22nd October though the official switch over was given as the 23rd of October by BT. How couldn’t this happen an engineer with 15 years experience coming on the wrong day I believe he was tipped off by open reach engineers that the line would not connect because of faults already on the line which had called so much distress. He told me not to worry and ring the office tomorrow when the switch over would take place. I did this numerous times along with my sister who had the same router issued but her line connected even with 0.6 Mb broadband speed first time. Yet on the other line which was a BT Business Line I had no incoming calls i had no incoming in which i made an income and the broadband speed was 2.6Mb-2.8Mb Max yet 12Mb was freely available nearly 50 yards away.Getting back to Talk Talk after a couple of 2 hour marathon sessions with technical department it was obvious that this line would never connect in a million years. So it was agreed a new engineer Jimmy was to be sent on 10th of November 2012 to connect me up to internet. He tried numerous times eventually give up and called somebody in technical department.He said go to your van and brought this huge white router in and he said i would have no security like stated in the Talk Talk package.He was having real difficulty connecting until he made another call and was given special codes and finally i had broadband and the speed was 14.76 Mb I said leave it on as i wanted to do some work at this speed. When i finished work I switched off as he had gave me codes to place i thought it would be alright to use it later after my tea.When i tried later those codes were in operative it just would not connect so i called Talk Talk and even they apologised and offered compensation for the 3 week plus without the internet.I spoke to senior personnel at Talk Talk chairman’s office it went on for a total of nearly 7 month’s before Talk Talk sent out another new router and seconded a BT engineer to connect it up.The speed was 14.76 Mb but it was the arrogance of the engineer which surprised.When I asked BT for compensation they chose to talk about being in deadlock and they after 6 months of joining another provider no claim for compensation would be entertained of which i didn’t know. I also called BT to why two different speeds on two incoming lines as both were fitted with broadband. The BT line had 2.7Mb and the talk talk line had 14.76Mb so i asked BT for an explanation. A girl came to the phone and said nothing could be done.I wasn’t happy so i called again and i was connected to Mike a BT engineer in Blackburn who took what i said seriously and said an engineer will sort it next week. I had a call on Tuesday at 9.00am to work on my broadband speed.I took a u switch broadband at 9.15am it was 2.7Mb and i got the printout. At 4pm the engineer working at the exchange called to say check your speed now it was 15.1 Mb so i took the printout again at 4.15pm yet for 3 years they could only give me 2.6-2.8Mb for 3 years.The only reason I found them out is I was unable to connect the broadband and who in their right mind would have two broadband services installed to their premises. When i asked Talk Talk for compensation they joined forces with BT in placing both lines in deadlock without any compensation paid by the two providers involved.BT did send an apology to Talk Talk blaming a faulty line and all the brand new routers faulty. There is a lot more to come out in this case rights which have been denied by everybody involved including some very prominent people who feel this level of behaviour is acceptable in 2016.The silent treatment is not the answer hoping I will lose my cool. BT and Talk Talk should settle my compensation when it is obvious computers have been used. There is a lot more issues to discuss but my proof is hard evidence of trading knowing my leads were going to others. Could you have 30 calls a day with not one new lead coming in from 9.00am to 2.00pm then silence till the next day.So much to take in yet even now BT group at sme england/sme scotland just keep on being silent as a result of denying my compensation claim. For a blue chip company to behave like they have and even the Ofcom ombudsman not even ackknowledge what i have suffered I find incredible talk about new regulation I am all for the change to go into the 21st century we are in a time warp at present with basic human rights denied access because of outdated cyber and telephonic regulation

  11. Avatar fastman says:

    reg this still does not make any sense to me !!!! if you actually listed the facts rather than all the “rubbish around and cp stuff around t” someone might be able to help — but your not helping yourself

    you’d be surprised what people have don’t have at their premise not sure how a talk talk talk engineer would have been tipped of by an openreach engineer if it was a network line issue it should have been an openreach engineer, perhaps it was and they confused you —

  12. Avatar Reg Morris says:

    To fastman and others who have tried to grasp the situation i find myself in. All because jealousy set in. I had two very good businesses but the way open reach engineers have treated the problems within is to continue with the no fault found theme. Since my allegations of one week ago BT open reach have been working on on open telephone cover box still open even now in the pavement a round the corner. Yet i am the person at fault for reporting a serious criminal problems inflicted on my lines. How is it still possible to be sidelined and made to feel foolish by this silent treatment inflicted on my lines. BT group could have settled the claim years ago along with Talk Talk as they chose not to thrash out the problems encountered. It all didn’t make sense one of my businesses was easy to replocate and duplicate I was the leading authority on my chosen subject. Having written articles for leading magazines in the field and i had a huge following to what we have now this kind of censorship inflicted. Somebody somewhere must know how it happened. I dont take the view that every body seems to state I am being misinformed. Yes i have listened to everybody who matters in the industry and the list is endless with what result nobody even bothering to call or visit to discuss my problems. The vast majority of people can’t prove criminality it is a thin line. Let me define the word Fraud
    Fraud is when trickery is used to gain a dishonest advantage which is financial over another person
    The list of complaints is endless yet BT group have had ample opportunity to
    come clean and restore faith in their group. What i can’t understand is why BT
    kept sending me back to the same personnel someway responsible for my plight and hope all the problems encountered over the years would blow over. All the personal involved were just playing for time. May i remind you criminal acts performed on my lines without my consent has no time limit. Unlike the statuary law which has 3 years to make a claim. This cause of action could easily bankrupt you. Why isn’t cyber and telephonic crime of importance to police officers its because very few understand the law on cyber and telephonic crime and really there are not enough officers fully trained to deal with the epidemic of serious cyber crime. The victim is left isolated while the purportraitor is left scot free under this present system and just look at the penalties a real joke in 2016 for this type of crime. We need far more accountability and Ofcom should have acted earlier but who can fight this threat without the help of police who have been very slow to act but in fairness have not had the necessary training to combat the threat which is real. What ever happens from now on is a real weakness in the present Ofcom system and deadlock procedure which only protects the telecommunications industry from investigating itself just like the police.How was it came to be that any public body ever agreed to some of these rules who only protect the telecommunications providers not the consumer and are still keeping the open reach breakup at arms length. I rest my case for a full and proper inquiry which with information furnished is justified.

    1. Avatar TheFacts says:

      What was the crime on your lines?

  13. Avatar Bozana says:

    Reg seems to be an ideal candidate to run for president of the Tin foil hat brigade.

  14. Avatar Reg Morris says:

    The facts can’t you read what i have submitted over the last week. If i went into a shop for 1kilo gram of sausages and the shopkeeper gave me only 250 You would have said i was robbed. On the internet broadband speed was finally given to me by two separate providers Talk Talk at 14.76Mb and BT business at 15.1Mb. Yet all i was offered was 2.6-2.8 Mb on my first bt business package for 3 years until finally Talk Talk finally gave me 14.76Mb.on the other business line i had eneoth so i moved it to Talk Talk I had the proof something was going on when finally BT business finally conceded with a 15.1 Mb reply from 2.7 Mb to out do Talk Talk’s 14.76Mb on two separate land lines. Do you think that was criminal and to have the silent treatment installed on a daily basis if i didn’t exist is this unacceptable behavior in 2016 with call drop outs answer machine messages 6-10 days late on 1571. I just want anybody in the industry to experience the problems
    i have had as it seems i have no human rights under this present Ofcom regime set up. Yes i have been given reference no’s but no real improvement in incoming business calls over the years. Yet BT seem to think they can run a two tier service aided by Ofcom and security installed at unrealistic cost which can’t pin point the wrongdoers who have tried to destroy my life. How can it be right for local open reach engineers to fill in claim forms for compensation. Do you think I am stupid it has took a long time to gather all the evidence which could never happen with one line but with two lines installed plus broadband on each I found out a lot of discrepensies. I could assume i have been targeted for a lousy and shoddy service. Why did BT maintain their position and not even offer one penny compensation. Just kept referring myself to the deadlock procedure which they thought they could dismiss because of the 7 month lapse between providers of which i didn’t know at the time.
    The same fault is still on the lines now years later. Can anybody with specialist knowledge or equipment help. Yes you have had the facts but not all because the full story is only beginning.

    1. Avatar FibreFred says:

      “The facts can’t you read what i have submitted over the last week”


      No-one can because of your walls of text. Even if you post properly what you are posting makes little sense I’m afraid, which may well explain why your complaints have gotten nowhere, leading to your further frustration

  15. Avatar Ignition says:

    This could have been an interesting discussion on the article in question but has been utterly hijacked and become an near-incomprehensible mess I have neither the time or desire to decode.


    1. Avatar Steve Jones says:

      Agreed, and the person concerned is probably far better raising the points (in a rather more coherent form) on the ThinkBroadband forums where there are people with sufficient patience to tease out the facts and produce advice.

  16. Avatar Reg Morris says:

    To Fibre Fred have you ever read the BT charter on communications and what i also want to know why are party lines acceptable on business lines. Urgent government action is needed I suggest the complete break up of Ofcom itself. Basically it is not Ofcom’s fault the parliament never upgraded their brief which let consumers down badly. We are in 2016 yet these rules of engagement are 15 years out of date. A new government minister needs to be appointed for victims of any kind of crime why all the secrecy we need more accountability and more investment on internal security at BT group
    Telecommunication companies should have an ABTA scheme like the travel industry when anything goes seriously wrong. Compensation is freely available immediately so no one loses out when something goes seriously wrong happens You can’t go under due to insider trading or a pattern of trading which doesn’t make sense. We need a better PR service offered by BT group and specialist fraud advisers for victims not the dreaded deadlock procedure which only favors the telecommunications companies.

  17. Avatar fastman says:

    seems he brought 2 products from 2 different providers to the same premises which is quite likely (as they will be different one of them may not have even been fibre but bonded copper — so still do not get what the issue is and don’t have the time or willingness to grunt through stuff

  18. Avatar Reg Morris says:

    No but you wouldn’t like all my experiences to happen to you I was fair game to be brought down. Why can’t anybody be independent and self motivated to succeed. I paid the telecommunications companies over the odds business prices and even at my all time low you all had the payments for a non existent services. If gas and electric companies behaved this way something would be said. Does anybody think i have not tried to resolve the issues amicably

  19. Avatar dragoneast says:

    We all have problems, or had them in the past. We don’t accuse everybody of a conspiracy, that’s just childish.

    I had a phone line with a problem that rendered it useless at least 50% of the time – for more than two years. The engineers worked hard to resolve it, but it was intractable and they found lots of potential problems, but not the right one until the end. Not incompetent. Just difficult. The underlying reason was the abysmal third party workmanship, several decades ago. They’ve put it right, but it took a decade. We still underperform, and probably always will, but have learned to make the most of it.

    We don’t get gold-plated service. No, and we don’t pay for it either. It took decades too to sort out the intermittent power cuts we used to suffer here in suburbia too. Anyone who looks for a magic wand, go and read a fairy tale.

    I don’t understand the technical aspects of telecomms, and it’s clear many other posters don’t either. But I try to listen and learn from those that do.

    1. Avatar dragoneast says:

      There’s a common misconception in this country too that money can buy you anything. It can’t. As I’ve found to my cost throwing money at an expensive package or ISP doesn’t guarantee a better service than cheap and cheerful. It’s as much the luck of the draw as anything. Do it if it makes you happy, but that’s the only reason. Live with it or get over it. We’re no more important than the next man, however important we think we are.

    2. Avatar GNewton says:

      Yours is an example of the prevalent “Can’t do” culture in this country. There is no magic to telecom services. It’s more an issue of an incompetent telecom company, BT in most cases.

      In the case of Ofcom, we see the same lame attitude as before. As I thought they would, Ofcom will just continue to muddle along, as always. What’s needed is a genuine telecom regulator which will actually do things, and not be influenced by BT all the time.

    3. Avatar dragoneast says:

      There is a difference between can do and wishful thinking. One of them gets results, though it sometimes takes longer than we would wish; the other doesn’t, no matter how long we wish for.

    4. Avatar GNewton says:

      @dragoneast: Sorry, but having had a line with a problem that rendered it useless at least 50% of the time – for more than two years, is a sign of gross incompetence. Just imagine the costs of all the fruitless engineer visits it must have required to apply patches to the old line. You reach a point where maintaining an old line isn’t economic any more!

    5. Avatar dragoneast says:

      OK, yeah that’s what I thought at the time too. Then I had to face reality: who was going to pay for it? I wasn’t, nor would the aggregate rentals for everyone on my estate. So everybody else would subsidise us, over their need for maintenance? Erm, no.

      Eventually we got there. A patched network even at virtually every dwelling, but with FTTC it gives consistent 40/6 even though I’m nearly the furthest from the cabinet (3-4/0.6 on ADSL). Actually no-one is complaining now. Possibly at the start of problems it would have been “cheaper” to have replaced the lot, though in the 1990s it wouldn’t have been with fibre. But that’s not the way the world works, anywhere. Virgin (or rather their forerunners) laid cable to the edge of the village at the end of the 1990s, but never came nearer: economics again. Expect otherwise: in your dreams.

    6. Avatar mrpops2ko says:

      dragoneast: yes I would expect others to pay for it. That is what the whole premise is based upon. An average shared resource. Much like how bandwidth isn’t dedicated to you exclusively but its a ‘best effort’ service.

      BT generate sufficient profits and get enough grants and have enough profitable lines that then they repair and give adequate service to your unprofitable one. it is basic give and take and it averages out.

  20. Avatar Andrew says:

    I have to agree with FibreFred here and say that if you have an issue with a service provider and you are going to complain to them you have to write in a coherent and clear manner.

    If Reg is writing to anyone in the same style as here, then none of them are going to take him seriously. Paragraphs help a lot. So here is one. 🙂

    I don’t find it surprising at all that Reg isn’t getting anywhere.

  21. Avatar Reg Morris says:

    To Fibre Fred Bozana the facts oggy
    Are you all on the BT payroll

    1. Avatar TheFacts says:

      What do you mean by a ‘party line’? Went years ago.

      People here would help if you were more clearer.

  22. Avatar Reg Morris says:

    When I asked BT group for another business new phone number at sales. I sincerely pleaded them for no problem fault free line but my request wasn’t adhered to. Result a rogue number given and 5 years of misery and suffering. Thanks BT

    1. Avatar TheFacts says:

      Please explain ‘rogue number’.

  23. Avatar Reg Morris says:

    To the facts a previous rogue number with countless problems reissued as a clean number. Party line were 3 telephone lines are all on the same line. I should be working for Ofcom

    1. Avatar TheFacts says:

      You are confused between numbers, lines and cables. Were 3 on the same cable with separate phones?

      What were the actual problems with this number, was it BT or TalkTalk?

  24. Avatar Reg Morris says:

    the facts go back to your office at BT 3 different numbers on the same party line
    I think you should have been a comedian. I am so confused BT and Open Reach have no answers to my serious allegations

    1. Avatar TheFacts says:

      There is no such thing as a party line, explain more.

  25. Avatar john lightfoot says:

    Mr morris so what if we are on the payroll you think your hard done by then take it up with the ombudsman or are they corrupt in your opinion as well, you state these allegations ‘crimes’ have you ever thought your business could be failing or been forgot about hence less calls etc what did the police say when you called them? am sure they have better things to do than your phone line!! why dont you move if its that much of a issue!!

    [admin note: removed personal abuse towards another poster]

  26. Avatar fastman says:

    there are no such things as party lines there may be a number of lines to the same dp that services a premise — that us not a party line

  27. Avatar Reg Morris says:

    Dear John Have you been getting my leads and pretending they are yours because
    haven’t you got a lot of mates working for open reach. Do BT have an internal police force security nod or wink or do I have to say the magic password before I have an audience with FBI. Are you living less than 70 yards from me that will explain the hole in the pavement around the corner set up by Open reach Did they find anything wrong all I know here in Neston so much going on not in the BT charter feels like I am on the moon. I am not the only person here with concerns
    just ask all the business people who have gone bust who had good businesses but very few incoming calls. The two tier BT system is here it looks right yes you can ring out but on the receiving end calls in just silence. There are so many cuckoo’s around it must be spring they jump in anybodies nest. What happened to this great company called BT group and the so called regulator Ofcom. The real problem is not everybody turns a blind eye there are honest personnel about and have pride in their work but it the bad apples who destroy’s all the good work

  28. Avatar Noel says:

    [admin note: removed personal details and trolling post]

    1. Mark Jackson Mark Jackson says:


      We do generally ask that commenters don’t make things personal and avoid trolling. A post that targets other commenters like this is a bit too over that line and while we can’t ID people who post, I am reasonably sure that a couple of the usernames you listed definitely aren’t BT employees. As a result of that I can only assume that you might thus be similarly incorrect on some of the other names, which could result in individuals receiving unjustified abuse.

      Likewise we don’t allow the posting of personal details, unless that information is publicly available (legitimately) to prove the association and the owner has said it themselves.

      Having said that, I don’t disagree with the sentiment that there are some BT employees posting in the comments section and at times they probably do a disservice to the operator’s image by borderline trolling good altnet projects. We are keeping an eye on that, but equally there are plenty who seem to troll any good work that BT does too.

      There’s no strict rule against ISP staff making posts and many do comment, although we do generally ask that those who work for a provider voluntarily identify themselves as such because it supports the context of their remarks.

  29. Avatar fastman says:

    noel what are you on about what any does on here in their own time or what they do for a living is neither hear nor there

  30. Avatar themanstan says:

    Oh dear Noel… it´s just a list of people who disagree with you… are people not allowed to have their own point of view?

  31. Avatar Reg Morris says:

    Thank you Noel I for one are not on the BT payroll but I expecting this great company to come clean with a gigantic offer of compensation soon. I must have had something that everybody wants to have both lines been so badly censored. Every time I contact BT then I am placed on auto pilot and auto e-mail sent. Can anyone define a humble telephone call because who is responsible for losses incurred as a result of calls which did not connect or was passed to a third party pretending to be me which broke the copyright of my advertising campaign. Let me define fraud and if the old bill need a crash course in cyber and telephonic crime the government must fund this lapse of security in BT group and police. Fraud definition again I know a lot of you including management will be a little hot under the collar now FRAUD is when trickery is used to gain a dishonest advantage which is often financial over another person. Are you at BT Business HQ London Head of Faults Dept Glasgow and all the BT personnel management plus all the line engineers seconded to the case.
    Do you all still maintain your position that everything is working correctly 100%. Or do you want to concede at this late stage a campaign was drawn up to take me out of business via using criminal means as explained earlier.I know you use the deadlock procedure but can I use the Simon Cowell method and go to the public vote using facebook twitter and linkedin. How did this once mighty telecommunications giant stoop so low and having senior men on the inside not being able to investigate my complaint fairly and impartially.The web of corruption and misinformation relayed to myself and lot of very prominent people, with a lot of times the silent treatment saying I was in deadlock nothing could be done rings in my ears. Yet I never failed to settle your business bills at well over the odds for a truly diabolical and lousy service. I believe their is a case for mental cruelty because no matter what I spent on advertising the net result was that I was not going to succeed. All this has taken its toll over the years including my sister who was subjected to 0.6Mb by 3 prominent providers but now receives 8.0Mb with Sky also 1571 messages 6-10 days late. I know in BT group there are honest law abiding citizens but nobody seems to see it from my point of view.Despite all the dishonesty over the years because this has been going on a considerable length of time. This also includes a huge premium line fraud in which I and my other colleagues suffered very badly. Please Mr Gavin Patterson CEO BT Group including Open Reach please put you house in order you run a two tier service which has been allowed to operate without any checks on your watch the so called trusted men have let you down badly it wont be the first time and it wont be the last this has happened. Back to the drawing board do i need to name names of prominent BT personal involved or do you think it is all in my imagination whats happened here.
    I don’t have to hire Perry Mason do I. You must see my point P.S (Perry has never lost a case). I will give you a clue.Holmes To Watson Let the bloodhounds start a search at BT telephone exchange in Park Street Neston and outwards on all lines including the open man hole with the BT boards around it in Bridge Street could be a hidden computer down there. To all Open Reach engineers involved in the case
    hope you all got the necessary insurance cover just in case BT Group don’t settle
    and pass liability to you because you are OPEN REACH

    1. Mark Jackson Mark Jackson says:

      Hi Reg,

      Could you kindly cut out the wall-of-text tl;dr comments as it’s largely unreadable and borderline spam. Thanks. Try to keep comments a bit shorter and to the point.

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