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UPD2 London AM Andrew Dismore Criticises BT’s Community Fibre Scheme

Wednesday, June 29th, 2016 (10:14 am) - Score 1,197
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The London Assembly Member for Barnet and Camden, Andrew Dismore (Labour), has accused BT of “putting profits before people” through its Community Fibre Partnerships scheme, which works to co-fund the roll-out of “fibre broadband” into areas that have yet to benefit from faster connectivity.

Sadly some areas in the final 5% of the United Kingdom continue to exist outside of the Government’s on-going Broadband Delivery UK programme, often because they would be too expensive to upgrade. None of this means that future contracts won’t include such areas, but sometimes residents in the affected areas would rather pay for something now than wait in uncertainty.

In those locations Openreach offers the option of a co-funding FTTC model, which requires local residents and businesses to cover any costs that rise above those of BT’s own commercial model for the area. Once agreed, 50% of the gap funding must be paid prior to work starting and the final 50% on completion.

Back in February 2016 BT confirmed that 50 such communities had already benefited from this approach, which has helped to cover an extra 25,000 premises across the UK. However not everybody views this as a good idea, with some expressing unease at the idea that any community should feel as if it has no other option than to donate money to get better broadband from BT.

AM Andrew Dismore said (Times):

“There are many examples of BT putting their profits before their obligation to the public to provide broadband access, but even when they get the money they still don’t get on with it.

BT decided that from their point of view it was uneconomic to connect a road of 170 homes in Totteridge. To be connected, BT demanded that the residents would have to pay £26,000.

Over a year ago, the residents paid up to Openreach and signed BTs contract. You might have thought that once they got the money, Openreach would get on with it, but the residents are still not connected.”

In fairness BT are not a grand social enterprise, they are a commercial business. At present there’s no strict obligation for BT to deliver superfast broadband services into areas where it makes no economic sense for them to do so. The alternative would be to offer no extra options for such communities at all.

However the forthcoming 10Mbps Universal Service Obligation (USO) may change that, although the onus for supplying it may ultimately rest with more technology choices and operators than just the fixed lines delivered by KCOM (Hull only) and BT. But the USO won’t be enforced until 2020, which still leaves plenty of potential for new co-funded partnerships.

Equally BT aren’t the only game in town and a savvy authority might well hunt around to see if any of the alternative network providers, such as Gigaclear, Hyperoptic or B4RN etc. are able to come up with a better solution than the national incumbent.

In the meantime London’s new Mayor, Sadiq Khan, has agreed with Dismore and said that he would lobby the Government to ensure that BT is made to work in the interests of the public. We asked Openreach for a comment before writing this and are currently awaiting their reply.

UPDATE 12:40pm

The full response from BT is below.

An Openreach Spokesperson told ISPreview.co.uk:

“We’re as frustrated as anyone by the delays to our co-funded project in Totteridge, and we have been updating the community regularly on the situation.

As we advised the Assembly Member earlier this month, we have faced protracted negotiations with a local landowner and their representatives, which have obstructed our plan to install and power a new fibre cabinet in the area.

Clearly we have to comply with legislation, so we have been powerless to act until the landowners or their agents give us written permission to proceed.

We are working hard to make fibre broadband available to local residents as soon as possible.”

UPDATE 30th June 2016

Apparently the project actually involves two cabinets so, out of the 170 homes, over 100 residents can already order the service and have been able to for two months now as one of the cabs has already been deployed. The other one should be following soon.

Leave a Comment
90 Responses
  1. Avatar Patrick Cosgrove

    As far as I can work out, BT gives no delivery date, and makes no promises of minimum speeds or of response times in the event if network failure. If you look up dome of the 50 schemes who’ve relyctantly gone down this path you’ll find that many have been kept waiting at every stage of the process. The sums per household are eye-watering and you get FTTC, not FTTP. I’d be very interested to know if participants have to sign an NDA, and apart from those whi can’t afford it, what happens to freeloaders who refuse to pay – does BT connect them anyway? You’ll gather I’m not a fan.

  2. Avatar Matt

    They stick the new fibre cabinet in and anyone on the old PCP can then get fibre. There is nothing to limit it to only those who contributed. The new cab just becomes part of the Openreach infrastructure, it’s treated exactly the same as any other cab after it’s been paid for:
    “PCP xxx and any other infrastructure provided will remain the property of BT and will form part of the BT estate. Openreach will take responsible for all future management and network upgrades once the cabinet is upgraded.”

    No mention of an NDA yet, but we’ve not got past the quote phase as we can’t raise the amount of money they’re asking for!

    • Avatar NGA for all

      @Matt How many properties and what is your PCP number and exchange? There are many examples where BT try it on, £26k is the full cost of a Phase 1 BDUK cabinet with no BT contribution. The notion of gap funding like gainshare are loosely defined. A fully documented versions exists where a BT CEO requested £40k and this was reduced to nothing in the end.

    • Avatar fastman

      NGA – Really There are many examples where BT try it on!!!! — actually you have not provided any actual evidence only your opinion !!! if its say PCP XX I think that will be a new structure not there to day and will includ significant network rearrangement and probably probably extensive civils and will be deeper into the community than the existing pcp !!! Curious that a cost which he says community cant afford — — curious which community ?

    • Avatar fastman

      karl one cab is live and has been for 2 months !!!!
      the cab with the wayleave is the cab not live

    • Avatar karl

      Can you please post in the right place, thats the second post now where i have no idea which comment you are responding to.

  3. Avatar karl

    Am i reading correctly. £26,000 was given to BT and they have done nothing for a year? They then blame a landowner for not having access to plop a cabinet and wiring there. One would think for £26,000 any comms company could spend an extra day with a trenching machine and go around the property rather than on it and install the cabinet and wiring in a different location, more than likely only a few metres away from their initial install point.
    My fibre cabinet is on the opposite side of the road to my old copper cabinet which BT initially tried to place the fibre cabinet right next to, ducting under the road was found to have collapsed so rather than mess with it they just put the cabinet as close as they could on the other side of the road. Why is this any different?

    • Avatar fastman

      its private land — and challenges around the wayleave siting the DSLAM have caused this issues

    • Avatar DTMark

      “challenges around the wayleave siting the DSLAM **where BT wanted to put it** have caused this issues”

      A year has elapsed now.

      Put it somewhere else and if needed, move the phone cabinet to be next to it. They only need to be near enough other precisely because this is not a fibre-optic deployment.

      I wonder what the delivery date was in the contract. Were people mad enough to pay the whole lot up front without a guaranteed delivery date, I wonder..

    • Avatar fastman

      DT Mark the whole area is private land the PCP is existing on Verder managed Land so there was no where else to site the cab !!!! Openreach has had same problems in new forest which I think IPS review has documented

      you can only site the cab if you have the appropriate local permissions

    • Avatar DTMark

      OK, so it can’t be done with a cabinet.

      Time to get a slot-cutter out and run along the pavement.

    • Avatar Colin

      “DT Mark the whole area is private land…”

      Utter nonsense, this is down to BT, blaming others again is typical of them.

      Totteridge is a small town (almost village by London standards) of only around 16-17,000 people. The area is only about 9 squared kilometres (or less than 6 miles squared).

      Areas of it already have FTTC (google up N20 postcode as example).

      The whole area is NOT private land, the whole town/village is only a few miles wide, they could quite easily move cabinets. Once again either laziness, or wanting to profiteer from what has been paid to do a job rather than spend and get it done.

    • Avatar TheFacts

      Which cabinet are we discussing?

    • Avatar fastman

      Colin to be clear on this

      the location of the PCP which covers the premises in question is on verder managed Land and due the distance between the existing PCP and DSLAM – (100m Max from PCP to DSLAM) but you need to get them as close as possible) is private Land and managed by the Verders you can only site the cab if you have the appropriate local permissions

    • Avatar MikeW

      @DTMark

      Cut a slot in what? More private land?

      A land owner being an arse about siting a single cabinet is going to be much worse if you try to “do a cable company” and cut slots in the entire length of their pavements instead.

    • Avatar Karl

      I can not believe BT workers are here trying to defend this with utter dribble.

      It is a road with 170 homes. If you say there are homes on both sides of the road then that is 85 homes per side of the road.

      If you then say each home is 6 metres wide (and that is being generous and assumes none of the homes are detached or semi detached or have alley ways or footpaths/walkways between them) then the distance of the road equates to 510 metres or over half a kilometre or if you wish that is over a third of a mile in length.

      And the excuse………. We are expected to believe it is all private land including and junctions along the road or either end of the road????

      I really have heard it all now from the BT PR workers on here.

      Why is it BT can not just accept responsibility for once? If its not cost, its the weather if its not the weather its the ducts, if its not ducts its lack of demand if its not lack of demand its somebody elses fault. The training must involved throw some BS at it until it sticks to someone else.

    • Avatar Colin

      “Why is it BT can not just accept responsibility for once? If its not cost, its the weather if its not the weather its the ducts, if its not ducts its lack of demand if its not lack of demand its somebody elses fault.”

      You forgot to blame other contractors, housing developers, local authorities and Ofcom.

      Still no explanation as to why they can not move the original PCP or better yet replace it entirely with a combined AIO cabinet. Everything could then be installed 1500 metres away from this road and still provide that road with speeds in the 15ish Mbps range at that distance.

      Or perhaps we are supposed to believe everything in a 1500 metres squared radius of this road is all private land owned by 1 organisation. Must be damned rich as thats bigger than many airports.

    • Avatar fastman

      Colin

      the challenge are is around 75 homes around a green in all directions from that Green — where the PCP is — we need to stand the DSLAM next to the pcp on the green 1!!! – the green is private land / needed a wayleave – fi we cant get it we cant stand the cab

    • Avatar TheFacts

      If the road has not been adopted by the council then it is private land.

      Can somebody supply the road details.

      What to the cabinet on the corner of a bungalow?

    • Avatar DTMark

      But the wayleave requirement would have been known a year ago.

      We checked with Virgin Media regarding a place we were looking to move to once since we couldn’t see any cable sockets, and they came back to us within 24 hours: private land, no wayleave. So we passed on that place.

      If the wayleave cannot be gained and most especially if BT have had the money a year ago: VDSL is not the only way of providing a solution. Time to look at others, or, move the phone cab next to where the VDSL cab is going to go.

      It’s not difficult, is it.

    • Avatar fastman

      you can present the wayleave, you can meet with the responder but it it does not get signed there is nothing you can do about is — BDUK has same problems in New Forest with Verders

    • Avatar Colin

      BT should just move the cabinet. They as i said could place a AIO cabinet in the next street which is not private property. In fact they could place it anywhere within 1500 Metres and still deliver 15Mb to that street.

      The affair has dragged on for a year BT have grabbed the money and have clearly not delivered what was paid for. They either need to get on with it or refund the cash plus interest they have made in the whole year upon it back to the community in question.

      You would not order anything in life, pay in advance for it, wait a whole year, get nothing and then think its acceptable the company that took your money held on to it would you?????

      Stop trying to justify BTs behavior in the matter, and not only justify it but come up with excuses why the work has not been done.

    • Avatar fastman

      colin

      UPDATE 30th June 2016

      Apparently the project actually involves two cabinets so, out of the 170 homes, over 100 residents can already order the service and have been able to for two months now as one of the cabs has already been deployed. The other one should be following soon. —

      2nd cab is now stood now awaiting connection !!!!

    • Avatar karl

      Why was one cabinet delayed if the “whole area” is private land????? Yet one cabinet had been allowed? Is it a case of that allowed cabinet is a few feet away from the private land (probably some blokes front garden) and so that one got done but the other initially did not until it hit the news and BT decided to shift it a few feet and put it slap bang (more than likely) next to the allowed one?

      Oh how predictable!

    • Avatar fastman

      karl one cab is live and has been for 2 months !!!!
      the cab with the wayleave is the cab not live

    • Avatar fastman

      the challenge are is around 75 homes around a village green (not someone garden as you put it) in all directions from that Green — where the PCP is

    • Avatar TheFacts

      Which exchange and cabs are we discussing here?

    • Avatar karl

      “karl one cab is live and has been for 2 months !!!!
      the cab with the wayleave is the cab not live”

      Make up your mind either there has been a cabinet installed there but not live or there is no cabinet due to a land owner not allowing them… Which is it now? Can you please decided on what line of rubbish you are going to peddle and stick to it.

      “the challenge are is around 75 homes around a village green (not someone garden as you put it) in all directions from that Green — where the PCP is”

      Where is the cabinet that has been enabled for that road located then…. A million miles away from the other one?

    • Avatar fastman

      Karl

      Karl there are 2 cabs covering the 170 premises 1 with 100+ premises that did not require a wayleave and one serving 75 premises which did – the one not requiring the wayleave is live (has been since end April 2016) and the one that did is now stood but not live yet

    • Avatar karl

      As i asked as you seem to think you are an authority on the matter where are the locations of both cabinets if they are in different locations?

      Also how can BT blame things on a wayleave if overnight suddenly the cabinet is standing there? If this has been applied for some time ago there would be a public record to the fact.

    • Avatar fastman

      the PCP has been there for Ever — you need a wayleave to stand the DSLAM (as is its on private / managed land) – DSLSAM needs to be with max 100m for PCP !!! the cabs are around half a mile apart (one is highways land one is on private land)

    • Avatar Colin

      So half the street get great speeds the other half do not?

      Perhaps rather than being cryptic you could actually point to the location of the cabinets.

      It also makes no sense why the second cabinet is installed but not activated, even more so when it has been funded. The issue can not be private land if it was allowed to be installed in the first place.

    • Avatar fastman

      colin

      It makes perfect sense there were 2 area close together with PCP’s within half a mile of each other — both were funded to enable DSLAMS to be stood next each f the them — 1 of pcps was on highways land one on Private land – the one highways land is live and orderable, the one of Private land had issues around wayleaves and access which is why it now has a DSLAM but not yet live !!!! so one of the funded cabs is live and one of them is not as there are cabs — see update 30th June

    • Avatar karl

      Oh i see so we are supposed to believe suddenly access was granted. Funny that… when it becomes news access is granted and the cabinet was plonked their a couple of days ago.

      Thats what we are spose to believe are we BT were held up with access until a couple of days ago and were held up for over a year?

    • Avatar fastman

      karl the cab was up and physically stood before this was issued !!!!

    • Avatar TheFacts

      Which 2 cabs are we discussing?

    • Avatar karl

      “karl the cab was up and physically stood before this was issued !!!!”

      So now you are saying BT trepassed onto private land to install a cabinet but just never bothered to activate it? Is that right? Can you please make up your mind what actually happened as this is now the 4th version of events.

    • Avatar fastman

      Karl !!!

      the permissions took ages this cab is stood — but in process of being completed — stand to activation date normally about 4 – 8 weeks depending on power connections / wayleave — Cab was stood before London assembly member went public
      I confirmed that cab was stood a number of days ago

    • Avatar Colin

      And still you refuse to show and name the cabinets locations.

    • Avatar karl

      He needs to make up his mind, first it was cos it was private land, then the cabinets had been there for ages (story says the working one has only been there 2 months).

      Basically its obviously a make it up as you go along excuse manual.

      Oh and yes still refuses to show this private land the cabinet is sitting on.

    • Avatar fastman

      not worth explaining it to you as you clearly have a set agenda on this !!!! but I will try once more

      2 PPCP; in Situ (one on public land one on private / managed land)
      2 Dslams both stood (both stood before this ISP thread was started
      Dslam 1 live since end April 2016 (on standard land)
      Dslam 2 stood not live yet (delayed standing due to wayleave (on private / managed land) and gaining power wayleave once stood)

      no not making it up in anyshape or Form

      cab on private managed land on was a village green area –

      ! cab on private 1 one cab not — can not make up his mind, first it was cos it was private land, then the cabinets had been there for ages (story says the working one has only been there 2 months).

      Basically its obviously a make it up as you go along excuse manual.

      Oh and yes still refuses to show this private land the cabinet is sitting on.

    • Avatar karl

      And we still await actual location info

  4. Avatar fastman

    NGA really so which one and where ?

    think the 26k relates to a specific county and based on a bulk of cabs

    • Avatar NGA for all

      @Fastman – Huntslett is an example – the email trail is good.
      £26k is a BT average for all phase 1 BDUK cabs as per evidence submitted to CMS Select Committee in February. It is on the inquiry website.
      I hope these private donations your charged with extracting will be deducted from any proposed Ofcom cost recovery for VULA.
      What is BT unit of investment per property passed? Are the higher take-up assumptions informing your model? Surely this should be bringing the request for gap funding down, not up? Higher take-up rates should permit you to invest more per property and this should reduce the amount your squeezing from these communities. Sure be commercial, but this does not have to be obnoxious.

    • Avatar fastman

      no he didn’t == he provided at Average of a county wide procurement of X hundred cabs (so sure what that cost if made up of anyway– that not the same as 1 cab !!!! in any shape or form !!!!

  5. Avatar fastman

    actually the cab you refer to or don’t was done commercially and never had a gap provided !!!! think the gap was for around 2 -3 cabs other cabs !!!! more misinformation to try to prove a point – that area was a challenge as a developer decided to build a significant number of homes post the commercial case decision being made

    • Avatar Gadget

      @NGA – what’s your point? Your link simply confirmed what fastman posted viz the cab was done as part of BT’s commercial deployment, so no gap funding and moved into build when the footprint growth from their assessment time was quantified and confirmed.

    • Avatar NGA for all

      @Gadget – Fastman sought proof of a gap funding request where in fact none was needed. In this Huntelett case sums of £40k were being sought. I am suggest with higher take up and lower costs, his gap funding requirement should be reducing in most circunstances.

    • Avatar karl

      Its like he/they can not remember the statements they make 5 minutes ago.

    • Avatar fastman

      the cab in question – did not have a gap fund issued

    • Avatar karl

      It had a request though which is what you asked for.

    • Avatar fastman

      karl it never had a gap and I understand others did which were not that cab !!! -0- so actually that is disinformation / incorrect information from NGA

    • Avatar Colin

      You asked for “think the 26k relates to a specific county and based on a bulk of cabs” you were shown its not based on ‘bulk’ cabs and an example of a different location entirely.

      He provided of an example of a 26k cabinet quote in a different location, who actually ended up paying it is irrelevant. The price is the same i assume or is actual cost of an item different depending on if BT pays or not?

  6. Avatar Ignition

    I guess this refers to this guy:

    Cabinet P82 FTTC Available from 3rd December 2013 Phase 11a 2013-2014 623 Huawei

    That 623 premises count was 110 when the initial decision was made, 400 when deployment was approved. That was the rub.

    There are over 480 FTTC connections on the cabinet in question at this time.

  7. Avatar TheFacts

    Where are the 170 homes in Totteridge?

  8. Avatar fastman

    these are covered by 2 cabs of which 105 are on one cab and already live since 30th April 2016

  9. Avatar fastman

    Totteridge is an old English village, currently a “protected” picturesque residential area of the London Borough of Barnet in North London

    • Avatar karl

      Congrats you can cut and paste from wikipedia, although that bonus bit of useless info goes both ways….. Only protected enough to allow 1 cabinet and not allow 1 is it?

      Just give us the specific locations of these cabinets, a road name for each would be a start.

  10. Avatar fastman

    yes exactly !!!! – Finally !!!!

  11. Avatar fastman

    karl no reason why you need to know — your not either a contributor or recipient

    • Avatar karl

      Boggles the mind why you repeated yourself to me for so long then if you do not wish to provide the evidence to back up your claims about cabinet locations.

      Put it down to another long winded bunch of BT PR nonsense eh?

    • Avatar TheFacts

      Why can’t you give us the 2 cabinet locations?

      I’m guessing North Finchley 19 and 55.

    • Avatar karl

      He obviously does not know so dunno why he wasted his time pretending he does.

  12. Avatar fastman

    karl I don’t have to back up any evidence but I can tell you its not 19

  13. Avatar fastman

    so you should be able to have a view where they both are

  14. Avatar fastman

    so karl when are yo providing your bank details and sort code just because someone asks for them !!!!

    • Avatar karl

      No and i fail to see how any of my private information compared to something on a public news site which is a matter of public record and what Openreach have publicly commented about is linked in anyway.

      Shall we just say you are not gonna provide the info because you never had it in the first place and be done or do you just want to continue with meaningless dribble?

      I can guess already what option it will be.

  15. Avatar fastman

    no you wouldn’t !!!! — some people on here know how i am,some don’t — you obvouisly have not got a clue

    • Avatar karl

      You are right i hav not got a clue why you pretend to know the inner workings of a project but not provide the information. Looks like i was right with my guess of what comes next from you also.

  16. Avatar fastman

    Karl — nothing more to be Said then !!!!! FYI I don’t pretend anything

  17. Avatar fastman

    very amusing if it was not so ridiculous — what roads and what cabinets and what premises are not public domain information information

    • Avatar TheFacts

      Easy enough to work out.

    • Avatar karl

      He clearly does not know the locations of these cabinets. Oh and if it is private rather than public information why even mention them on a public website in the first place? Or even go into legal matters concerning access to land?

      And so we still wait for information which will never be presented once again from BT.

  18. Avatar fastman

    karl some of this is public some of is not !!!! you are asking for stuff that is not !!!! — what I know / not know is irrelevant in this context

    • Avatar karl

      What am i asking about which is not not public info? The cabinet is not part of the BT commercial roll out and has been funded so there should be no secrecy about the cabinet.

      Lets just reiterate again shall we, you dunno the ins and outs and refuse to provide simple information.

      I suggest if its so private you stop talking about it on a public website.

  19. Avatar fastman

    Karl Really – when is been funded via contract with community directly with Openreach – perhaps they don’t their information road names and stuff all over the place — would you if you having entered into a contractual relationship with a supplier

    • Avatar karl

      That post made no sense. Neither grammatically or explanatory. Are you just posting random words now?

  20. Avatar fastman

    FYI both cabs cofunded by community now live and orderable

    • Avatar karl

      Except the people that might like to order can not because they do not know which cabinets are enabled or where they are… its a secret!

    • Avatar AO

      I live in Totteridge, and my next door neighbour said he managed to get fibre around April/May due to recent upgrades. However, I’ve been trying to purchase fttc myself for months and BT just keep telling me the cabinet’s full! In fact, I called them before April, and kept being told that there were no current plans to upgrade my cabinet! I have no idea what is going on.

    • Avatar AO

      Found this Karl: https://www.telecom-tariffs.co.uk/codelook.htm?xid=795707&cabinets=13706
      It says it’s cabinet 18, due live November 2016

    • Avatar karl

      Nah cant be that according to the BT employee both cabs are “now live and orderable”. Of course he could like for most of the comments he made just be talking out of his proverbial.

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